Temp power

Ohms law

Senior Member
Location
Sioux Falls,SD
Do 50amp 250vac receptacles fed from a temp panel that is hard wired to a 70kw generator need to be GFCI protected? I am confused and my local inspector is saying it is required with he 2017 change.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 
Would 210.8 other than dwellings follow under this scenario?
Is this a dwelling? If te usage qualifies for article 590, the rules are a bit different (see 590.6).

If the inspector doesn't like something, they're supposed to tell you specifically why they don't; "It's in 2017" doesn't cut it. In the end, it might be easier to install a GFCI ("We both know it's not required, but I put one in, anyway").

----

All that said, it looks like 590.6(A)(1) calls out GFCIs for 15/20/30A 120v rec's but (B)(1) gets everything else, and that also indicates GFCIs (unless (B)(3) applies).
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Assuming this is outside, then 210.8(B)(4) would apply. The charging text for 210.8(B) says:
(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All single-phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less and three phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 100 amperes or less installed in the following locations shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
 

Ohms law

Senior Member
Location
Sioux Falls,SD
So do you feel he is correct? It doesn't say anything about 50 amp under art 590 or 445. What makes me think he may be right is that we feed ther trucks from a panel which is outdoor other than dwelling.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
So do you feel he is correct? It doesn't say anything about 50 amp under art 590 or 445. What makes me think he may be right is that we feed ther trucks from a panel which is outdoor other than dwelling.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
590.2(A) says the rest of the code applies.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It's for food trucks at a cinco de mayo event.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Sounds like cinco de mayo event for procrastinators at this point;)

Would 210.8 other than dwellings follow under this scenario?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Unless the receptacle is at a dwelling unit, absolutely, all conditions mentioned in 210.8(B) would require GFCI for this presumably 50 amp 125/250 volt receptacle, outdoor receptacles is in the list. If it happens to be an indoor venue, maybe you don't need GFCI, but how often is food trucks used indoors at an indoor venue?

I think 590 would only require GFCI for 50 amp outlet used for temp construction applications - but 210.8 still requires if outdoors or other conditions in 210.8
 

Ohms law

Senior Member
Location
Sioux Falls,SD
There are nuns that own a local hospital and one of the sisters runs the Cinco de Mayo event every year. The weekend after May 5th to help the Hispanic community come out and get together, I volunteer every year and this year (year 3) I finally had this event down and hooked up with in a couple hours. Usually given 4hrs from start to finish.

This year the inspector required GFCI protection for 50 amp 250v receptacles so when we turned it all on, every truck was tripping the GFCI breakers. All the trucks had neutrals and grounds terminated under common bars. Needless to say we didn't have material to fix this, and all these folks had suicide cords. I had to yell at a guy and pull a cord end away from him because he was about to touch the Male prongs. We provide 50amp female receptacles.
Sounds like cinco de mayo event for procrastinators at this point;)

Unless the receptacle is at a dwelling unit, absolutely, all conditions mentioned in 210.8(B) would require GFCI for this presumably 50 amp 125/250 volt receptacle, outdoor receptacles is in the list. If it happens to be an indoor venue, maybe you don't need GFCI, but how often is food trucks used indoors at an indoor venue?

I think 590 would only require GFCI for 50 amp outlet used for temp construction applications - but 210.8 still requires if outdoors or other conditions in 210.8
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

Ohms law

Senior Member
Location
Sioux Falls,SD
Sounds like cinco de mayo event for procrastinators at this point;)

Unless the receptacle is at a dwelling unit, absolutely, all conditions mentioned in 210.8(B) would require GFCI for this presumably 50 amp 125/250 volt receptacle, outdoor receptacles is in the list. If it happens to be an indoor venue, maybe you don't need GFCI, but how often is food trucks used indoors at an indoor venue?

I think 590 would only require GFCI for 50 amp outlet used for temp construction applications - but 210.8 still requires if outdoors or other conditions in 210.8
So are campgrounds required to have 50amp receptacles GFCI protected?

I talked to a buddy today to get some insite from him and I thought about how he just did a campground within the past 6 months and he did not have to install GFCI protection for the 50amp receptacles. Unless this was an over site from the inspector after looking over the comments and reading in the old electricians bible I would say they would need GFCI protection.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
There are nuns that own a local hospital and one of the sisters runs the Cinco de Mayo event every year. The weekend after May 5th to help the Hispanic community come out and get together, I volunteer every year and this year (year 3) I finally had this event down and hooked up with in a couple hours. Usually given 4hrs from start to finish.

This year the inspector required GFCI protection for 50 amp 250v receptacles so when we turned it all on, every truck was tripping the GFCI breakers. All the trucks had neutrals and grounds terminated under common bars. Needless to say we didn't have material to fix this, and all these folks had suicide cords. I had to yell at a guy and pull a cord end away from him because he was about to touch the Male prongs. We provide 50amp female receptacles.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
I have questioned if many the 2017 changes to 210.8 are really that justified. This particular kind of application I think it maybe is. Lot of potential wiring errors are going to be a majority of ground faults in that kind of situation. They never go detected without the GFCI's either.

Of course the recurring thing you will be hearing a lot of is always going to be - "it has worked fine that way for years".
 

Ohms law

Senior Member
Location
Sioux Falls,SD
I have questioned if many the 2017 changes to 210.8 are really that justified. This particular kind of application I think it maybe is. Lot of potential wiring errors are going to be a majority of ground faults in that kind of situation. They never go detected without the GFCI's either.

Of course the recurring thing you will be hearing a lot of is always going to be - "it has worked fine that way for years".
Could not agree more.

The one good thing that came out of this is I had a very good conversation with the inspector today and how the city needs to come up with a mandatory electrical inspection either by the city or the city require a licensed contractor to inspect and sign a form that would need to be completed yearly with there health inspections.


Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
So are campgrounds required to have 50amp receptacles GFCI protected?

I talked to a buddy today to get some insite from him and I thought about how he just did a campground within the past 6 months and he did not have to install GFCI protection for the 50amp receptacles. Unless this was an over site from the inspector after looking over the comments and reading in the old electricians bible I would say they would need GFCI protection.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
All of the other CMPs were caught sleeping when CMP2 made the GFCI changes in the 2017 code. With the 2017, some AHJs will require the campground receptacles to comply with 210.8 and others will not. All of the other articles that have GFCI requirements will address this issue in the 2020 code. They will either have a statement that says the rules in 210.8 do not apply for the article, or they will have a statement that says in addition to the requirements in this article the requirements of 210.8 also apply or a hybrid of those statements. The following is from the second draft report for the 2017 code.
551.71(F) GFCI Protection.
Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection shall be provided as required in 210.8(B). GFCI protection shall not be required for other than 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles used in the recreational vehicle site equipment.
This language will not require the larger receptacles in the pedestals to have GFCI protection, but any receptacles not part of the pedestal will have to be protected in accordance with the rules in 210.8.
 

tortuga

Senior Member
Location
(44.057116, -123.103394)
Occupation
field supervisor
210.8 should be amended to only require (RCD) UL Class B GFCI protection (30ma) for 120/240V single phase 30-50A receptacles. As most are actually 'feeders' in a sense. A 5ma ground-fault on a 120V RV, food truck or spider box receptacle will take out the 'feeder' GFCI before the GFCI receptacle the problem load is plugged into, causing potentially a much larger hazard.
I put a old hot tub 50A GFCI on my RV receptacle years ago and noticed that when a GFCI tries to trip the main goes instead.
 

Ohms law

Senior Member
Location
Sioux Falls,SD
210.8 should be amended to only require (RCD) UL Class B GFCI protection (30ma) for 120/240V single phase 30-50A receptacles. As most are actually 'feeders' in a sense. A 5ma ground-fault on a 120V RV, food truck or spider box receptacle will take out the 'feeder' GFCI before the GFCI receptacle the problem load is plugged into, causing potentially a much larger hazard.
I put a old hot tub 50A GFCI on my RV receptacle years ago and noticed that when a GFCI tries to trip the main goes instead.
Interesting..... Something needs to happen, someone mentioned there is a change for 2020 and how it covers 445, 551 and 590. After really getting into this particular topic it is clear there are alot of holes in the verbiage.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 
Interesting..... Something needs to happen, someone mentioned there is a change for 2020 and how it covers 445, 551 and 590. After really getting into this particular topic it is clear there are alot of holes in the verbiage.
Yep. I'm going to have to "go back to school" on this; most places I've been working are still on 2014 and things like this are, IMHO, silly (and a gift to the breaker manufacturers ).
 

Besoeker3

Senior Member
Location
UK
Do 50amp 250vac receptacles fed from a temp panel that is hard wired to a 70kw generator need to be GFCI protected? I am confused and my local inspector is saying it is required with he 2017 change.
Just a question in passing from that Brit again.
I didn't think you used 250Vac over there?
Or is that just the nominal voltage rating of the receptacle?
 
Top