The hidden, extremely costly LED lighting maintenance

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ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
All the lights in our house are 230V LEDs.

LED ights sold in the UK are also more likely UL listed, where consumers caught with illegal products are regularly bagged by a police task force and procecuted.

In the rest of the lawless world, LED lights are certified by any Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL), including counterfeit UL stickers, which go unrepoted, or are immune to procecution.

Just like poisoned drinking water in Flint Michigan, or Chinese dogfood & lead-tainted toys never get prosecuted in the States, similar events are an act of war in socialist governments like the UK, where culpable officials or executives are bagged & held accountable.

Anything Besoeker has bought for his home in the UK is better tested, and better regulated, then most other parts of the world.
 
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Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
The topic is about the hidden, extremely costly LED lighting maintenance.
What exactly has to be maintained?
What are the costs compared to HID, LP sodium etc?
What is the life expectancy of LEDs compared to other technologies for, say, street lighting?

well, the OP has a virulent dislike for LED luminaries, for whatever reason.

extremely most likely refers to the complete replacement of the fixture in the
event of failure. not hidden.

until this thread, i was unaware that "spaz" was a technical term in the lighting industry.
he seems to be horrified at the luminare flashing in fail mode. for the commercial grade
LED's in my house, i've had several failures out of fifty lights. including the one right over
this desk. it strobed for two days before i changed it out.

i survived the ordeal, somehow.
 
Seems like Besoeker and I, and perhaps others, have been asking simple questions but haven't received anything approaching answers.

I also question the "high-performance" thing. If we're talking about an office building, IME as long as the lights go on when you flip the switch, that's all the performance you need; nobody is concerned about the exact lumen output or colour temp.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Yes, you have and it's irrelevant. It's like attesting to the reliability of a cooling fan at the back of a computer that seldom experience motor drive failure in a discussion about a 100 hp system in an industrial plant. Those LEDs are driven at very low power and ballasted passively with a single resistor. Line voltage LED indicator consumes over 95% of milliwatts of power used in the ballast resistor but the total power is so little that it does not have heat dissipation concerns. The power density of lamps you keep talking about is essentially zero.

Build an A19 bulb using 3 LEDs/juntions in series with a series resistor ballast thermally bonded to the metal body and set the resistor so the whole thing only consumes one watt, and you will enjoy similar durability as the indicator lamps you keep talking about but you have a ballast loss of about 25% operated from a native 12v DC source. This is how 12v rope LEDs are setup. Realistically, ballasting loss is 35-40% since utility to 12v DC power supply is only 80-85% efficient.

Since common usage demands a drop-in replacement, comparable output, low flicker and have a better than CFL lm/W, the lamp will inevitably rely on transistorized LED ballast which is the weak link that blows up and cause disagreeable behavior as it fails.


Concerning LED light bulbs, they're often inappropriately used to replace CFLs which are also inappropriately installed in a fixture designed for 40 or 60W A19 lamp. This happens, because enclosed rated lamps are rare. It is because there's a significant technical challenge to building a lamp that can maintain the rated output in this environment and survive the rated life because it is a technical challenge to build an effective electronic ballast (effective means maintain flicker level comparable to incandescent lamp) that can survive this environment to be able to have desirable rated life span. You should have some skepticism on 800 lm LED that says suitable for use in enclosed fixtures as well as being dimmable. Some of them internally use the second 0-10v like input on the ballast tied to a temperature sensor and dim the lamp and support enclosed fixture by dimming the lamp. This meets realistic specs for motion activated security lights when full output for the first five minutes means full output for intended purpose but its not ok for dusk-to-dawn use.

You have 8-12w (depending on design age and model) going into the size of a baseball for a 60W equivalent, 800 lm lamp. Thermal loading into the body is higher for LEDs than CFL as CFLs can shed quite a bit more of energy as infrared than LED.
Enclose it within a fixture. The more heat that has to be rejected by conduction means the hotter the lamp body gets.
So what is your preferred solution for reducing energy consumption?
 

mivey

Senior Member
The topic is about the hidden, extremely costly LED lighting maintenance.
What exactly has to be maintained?
What are the costs compared to HID, LP sodium etc?
What is the life expectancy of LEDs compared to other technologies for, say, street lighting?
Those are good questions that deserve good answers. I don't have them.

The problem is finding standards that will give you good comparisons. Old tech has been around and the comps are easier to make and more dependable. With LEDs it seems like vendors will tell you almost anything. I wish there was a way to cut the hype and get to the facts that make comparisons realistic.
 

mivey

Senior Member
Seems like Besoeker and I, and perhaps others, have been asking simple questions but haven't received anything approaching answers.

I also question the "high-performance" thing. If we're talking about an office building, IME as long as the lights go on when you flip the switch, that's all the performance you need; nobody is concerned about the exact lumen output or colour temp.
The wide variance in LED lamp quality I get at big box stores is fine for a small application. If you get it wrong, just get a replacement.

I think a large deployment with a lot of time and money involved deserves a closer look at what will work best for the lighting design. Minimal lumens is a necessity in some locations as is correct color rendering. Lumen maintenance and long life can also be important. Not that all locations will need to give those things careful consideration.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
Those are good questions that deserve good answers. I don't have them.

The problem is finding standards that will give you good comparisons. Old tech has been around and the comps are easier to make and more dependable. With LEDs it seems like vendors will tell you almost anything. I wish there was a way to cut the hype and get to the facts that make comparisons realistic.

I'll address his stuff one by one.

The topic is about the hidden, extremely costly LED lighting maintenance.

What exactly has to be maintained? Basically any up-keep needed during their useful time. Did you guys watch the Detroit LED fail? HID and fluoro parts are like standard motors while LED system parts are like specialized appliance parts. When you guys are talking about household use, you're comparing a hose bib gasket vs a similar looking gasket deep inside the engine bay in a car. What does it cost to tear it down? In case of LEDs, what does it cost to require unplanned urgent calls to get to spaz blinking?


What are the costs compared to HID, LP sodium etc? this obviously depends on the use pattern and maintenance method used.

What is the life expectancy of LEDs compared to other technologies for, say, street lighting? well, certainly they forgot that life is a total of all the components. Obviously, only LEDs suffer from that Detroit youtube video. If it didn't happen all at once, but spread days or weeks apart, what do you think it's gonna cost? Something that is known is LEDs can fail like this and it gets costly very quick. So, this is why blink failure should be prohibited by specs.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Obviously, only LEDs suffer from that Detroit youtube video. If it didn't happen all at once, but spread days or weeks apart, what do you think it's gonna cost? Something that is known is LEDs can fail like this and it gets costly very quick. So, this is why blink failure should be prohibited by specs.

googled detroit LED video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2n2DRFypIw

seems the block went dark after someone broke the feed to the street.
they said it took an hour to fix.

maybe there is another video....
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
170805-2048 EDT

Above I saw reference to Detroit LEDs, but not the link. So I did a search and found this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOZxP-ufTY
The first video shows flashing lights. The second is a medical discussion. And the third is mostly a tirade on radio frequency radiation and "1984" surveillance.

Then I discovered Fulthrotl's link. It is different than my link.

We have some LEDs in town. When early ones were installed I found their location and checked out illumination. I did not like the lighting. Where I normally drive at night I don't encounter LEDs so I have no recent opinion.

.

.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
I'll address his stuff one by one.

The topic is about the hidden, extremely costly LED lighting maintenance.

What exactly has to be maintained? Basically any up-keep needed during their useful time. Did you guys watch the Detroit LED fail? HID and fluoro parts are like standard motors while LED system parts are like specialized appliance parts. When you guys are talking about household use, you're comparing a hose bib gasket vs a similar looking gasket deep inside the engine bay in a car. What does it cost to tear it down? In case of LEDs, what does it cost to require unplanned urgent calls to get to spaz blinking?


What are the costs compared to HID, LP sodium etc? this obviously depends on the use pattern and maintenance method used.

What is the life expectancy of LEDs compared to other technologies for, say, street lighting? well, certainly they forgot that life is a total of all the components. Obviously, only LEDs suffer from that Detroit youtube video. If it didn't happen all at once, but spread days or weeks apart, what do you think it's gonna cost? Something that is known is LEDs can fail like this and it gets costly very quick. So, this is why blink failure should be prohibited by specs.

But no actual figures to support your contention?
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
170806-1115 EDT

In my above post numbered #112 the word "third" probably should be fourth or fifth. In retrospect I think the third was street lights flashing red when emergency vehicles were coming.

.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician



I think Fulthortl might be correct. It could very well have been an open phase or an open neutral. Around me two years ago a strip of 250 watt HPS roadway lights started doing literally the exact same thing. 2 out of ever 3 lamps from a string of about 100. Upon looking at the pole feeding the lightning controller I noticed a delta-delta bank, so its safe to assume 480 volt phase-phase connected ballast. My guess is that one of the phases opened somewhere placing 2/3 of the lights in series. The striking and warming lamp causes the impedance of the fixture to change and in turn voltage leading to that flickering.

Guys on Youtube are to quick to speak as usual.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
I think Fulthortl might be correct. It could very well have been an open phase or an open neutral. Around me two years ago a strip of 250 watt HPS roadway lights started doing literally the exact same thing. 2 out of ever 3 lamps from a string of about 100. Upon looking at the pole feeding the lightning controller I noticed a delta-delta bank, so its safe to assume 480 volt phase-phase connected ballast. My guess is that one of the phases opened somewhere placing 2/3 of the lights in series. The striking and warming lamp causes the impedance of the fixture to change and in turn voltage leading to that flickering. Guys on Youtube are to quick to speak as usual.

HPS can't strobe or spaz blink. The ignitor simply doesn't produce enough voltage to hot strike and if it did, it would arc over elsewhere in the fixture before re-striking a hot lamp. It's something only LEDs suffer due to design flaws. Just disallow it in specs and put in remedies so the cost of corrections get entirely picked up by the LED sales vendor or the coverage they get at their cost. Alongside this, prohibit silently letting "thermal management" from compromising performance during normal usage unless it is disclosed for consideration (i.e. thermal management for parking lot may go into protective dimming if they're left on with the sun baking on the fixture)

Lighting designers or end user's buyers are not expected to intuitive sniff out specific risks that plagues certain technology but if they're given an idea of what to look for, they can just drop it into spec requirements. I place larger share of blame on the fixture integrators with the rest on the transistorized LED ballast manufacturers. It's becoming obvious to me some aren't too concerned with putting out inadequately validated beta products into major deployment.

LEDs have been extremely expensive and this is one of the reason they attract sales dealer who promise savings projection that does not happen for 3-4 times the duration of time they've been in business and by people that come from damn sales background.

Anyways being on alert of the nature of high vanishing (bankruptcy) rates of LED fixture assembly business as well as LED sales and installation and the specific failures to be on the lookout for provides clue for what to put in specs and reasonable justification for more rigorous conditions. Many LLCs have popped up to focus on those criteria. Without the proper justifications, someone will cry criteria are unfair! All the specs reqs do here is disallow certain failure mode, how it must be addressed, who will pay to have it addressed, how to keep high risk sales vendor from bidding in the first place or the type of coverage they're to provide against delayed discovery. Additionally, logically unsupportable items to avoid such as "shall be LED" which can force to select and spend more money in order to meet that specific requirement.

What this does is setup negotiated terms that could actually affect the bid price or give second thoughts to back-end issues so that LED benefits can not be sold for profit while leaving uncertainty risk with the end-user and the uncertainty is still quite high with LEDs. I heard consumer grade LED brands don't always ask for bad lamps back which is a form of acknowledgement that legitimate LED product blowouts are common enough... like LEDs.

Risk conscious companies will go up to where they get their products from and inquire them about it. Long established major businesses have to look further. his cuts them from being able to get cheap junk or very near future hopes of cost reduction engineering change because if they pitch LEDs to make money now with promises of future savings but certain items can come back and get them even well after the warranty. If spaz blink isn't specifically banned, the products that were supplied for pilot test that did not suffer form spaz blink can be made with spaz blink vulnerable ballast design in order to reduce cost. A term like "shall not fail catastrophically" will lead to disagreement over what constitutes catastrophic failure.

Decisions are often made by people who have no idea about lighting technology. LED lighting is a huge fad like many eco and green stuff and this needs to be discussed.


We're not talking about life support system or nuclear reactor design where a failure can be expected to cause catastrophic property loss or threaten life. Questions like projected maintenance cost on an experimental beta product against a proven technology is absurd. We're very aware transistors routinely fail closed while vacuum tubes seldom do or some incapable of failing that way by design. Only certain things respond well to accelerated testing. Chocolate degrade even at room temperature and the temperature affects the degradation rate but accelerating testing above certain temperature will cause it to melt which will not happen for a century at normal temperature and limits how quickly it can be accelerated.
 
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mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
HPS can't strobe or spaz blink.

I personally saw one that did at end of life cycling. A 400 watt utility flood. When it went out it would 1/4-1/5 second flash for about 15 seconds before stopping. My guess was that it had an instant re-strike ignitor- and I do remember one manufacturer offering that option if my memory serves right.


The ignitor simply doesn't produce enough voltage to hot strike and if it did, it would arc over elsewhere in the fixture before re-striking a hot lamp. It's something only LEDs suffer due to design flaws. Just disallow it in specs and put in remedies so the cost of corrections get entirely picked up by the LED sales vendor or the coverage they get at their cost. Alongside this, prohibit silently letting "thermal management" from compromising performance during normal usage unless it is disclosed for consideration (i.e. thermal management for parking lot may go into protective dimming if they're left on with the sun baking on the fixture)


These roadway lights in question were not fully warmed up bulbs, but coming from a "warmish" start. The bulb would strike, waver in brightness, blink/flicker and go out. The bulbs never even got close to fully warming up and never reached full brightness.

My best analysis being that the voltage varied enough that eventually the lamp struck, and as it warmed up the voltage would drop across the fixture and the lamp would go out. Remember, you have 2 groups of 25 parallel ballasts in series all bouncing around in impedance as lamps strike and extinguish.


Also, you would be incorrect about the voltage arcing over in the fixture because instant re-strike ignitors do not require any special sockets or wiring:

https://www.platt.com/CutSheets/Advance/Ignitor.pdf

https://www.vossloh-schwabe.com/uploads/tx_espdfsearch/VS-Component-Systems_2014_EN_01/0062.pdf

https://www.ebay.com/i/122432792780?chn=ps&dispItem=1
 
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