This is why electronic meter are so dangerous

[iwire]

My source is a meter shop technician, one of my friend, he repaired or expertised about 300,000 meters in his life :

5 days a week x 52 weeks a year x 40 years = 10,400 days. No days off, no vacations

300,000 meters / 10,400 = 28.8 meters per day or 3.6 meters per hour for an 8 hour shif

Your friend is amazing.

 

[schlum]

5 days a week x 52 weeks a year x 40 years = 10,400 days. No days off, no vacations

300,000 meters / 10,400 = 28.8 meters per day or 3.6 meters per hour for an 8 hour shif

Your friend is amazing.

For the old meter, checking et repairing, the rate was 80 meters per day. The new meter, most of the time, there is almost nothing to repair, just expertising, it is good or no good

Old meter calibration 160 a day, 4 batch of 40

 

[meternerd]

My source is a meter shop technician, one of my friend, he repaired or expertised about 300,000 meters in his life so if you think you have the answer with only a few hundreds meters, think again, you have seen nothing. I just found important to advise, all of you, of the danger of those meters, you do what you want with those informations. Forewarned is forearmed:

300,000....failures? Hmmmm....I can only go by my experience....We have over 30,000 installed and the electronic meters have no higher failure rate than electromechanical and I have yet to see one that has failed in a way that would cause a fire. Could be a manufacturing issue. Been in the meter field for 30+ years, but electronic residential meters have only been around the last 15 or so. Just my personal experience. I've dealt mainly with Itron & GE. Can't comment on other brands. In today's world, you don't have many options. I don't think you can even buy electromechanical meters anymore.

 

[iwire]

For the old meter, checking et repairing, the rate was 80 meters per day. The new meter, most of the time, there is almost nothing to repair, just expertising, it is good or no good

Old meter calibration 160 a day, 4 batch of 40

At this point I am just going to say straight out I do not believe you.

 

[schlum]

300,000....failures? Hmmmm....I can only go by my experience....We have over 30,000 installed and the electronic meters have no higher failure rate than electromechanical and I have yet to see one that has failed in a way that would cause a fire. Could be a manufacturing issue. Been in the meter field for 30+ years, but electronic residential meters have only been around the last 15 or so. Just my personal experience. I've dealt mainly with Itron & GE. Can't comment on other brands. In today's world, you don't have many options. I don't think you can even buy electromechanical meters anymore.

I forgot to add calibration also and i never said that the 300,000 had failures. expertise don't mean that the meter is in failure

 

[schlum]

At this point I am just going to say straight out I do not believe you.

I have nothing to gain to lie to you. With my friend and also a open door day, i visit the meter shop and he explain everything to me.

And did you ever repair or calibrate a meter in your life ?

 

[meternerd]

[For the old meter, checking et repairing, the rate was 80 meters per day. The new meter, most of the time, there is almost nothing to repair, just expertising, it is good or no good

Old meter calibration 160 a day, 4 batch of 40] Quote

Let's see....80 meters per day (or is it 160 per day). My experience: 15 min per meter for full test (Full Load, Light Load and Power Factor) without adjustment takes about 15 min on average. 160 X 15 = 2400 min = 40 hours. Long day.....What can I say?:?

 

[schlum]

[For the old meter, checking et repairing, the rate was 80 meters per day. The new meter, most of the time, there is almost nothing to repair, just expertising, it is good or no good

Old meter calibration 160 a day, 4 batch of 40] Quote

Let's see....80 meters per day (or is it 160 per day). My experience: 15 min per meter for full test (Full Load, Light Load and Power Factor) without adjustment takes about 15 min on average. 160 X 15 = 2400 min = 40 hours. Long day.....What can I say?:?

You simply dont read carefully, i wrote batch of 40. They have calibration table of 40 in the same time, you run the table at full load and adjust each meter, it take about 20 min to adjust all the 40 to each test


Here the new calibration table they have, 10 meter at the time but they have 4 old tables of 40

http://www.pmt-inc.com/product_PMT40600.htm

 

[schlum]

[For the old meter, checking et repairing, the rate was 80 meters per day. The new meter, most of the time, there is almost nothing to repair, just expertising, it is good or no good

Old meter calibration 160 a day, 4 batch of 40] Quote

Let's see....80 meters per day (or is it 160 per day). My experience: 15 min per meter for full test (Full Load, Light Load and Power Factor) without adjustment takes about 15 min on average. 160 X 15 = 2400 min = 40 hours. Long day.....What can I say?:?

here a 40 meters calibration table design for china

http://meterworks.en.made-in-china.com/product/JolEyNujMZVS/China-Meter-Bench-40-Position.html


and a 48 meters bench
http://www.szclou.com/zndw/info_1259.aspx?itemid=375&lcid=72


I suggest that you visit your local meter shop, you have a lot to learn

 

[JRW 70]

Exploding Metering

Exploding Metering

First off I'm assistant engineer for power production, so I don't see
that many "regular" meters in our system. However when these new
meters were first being implemented, there were tests run by the
relay/CB department using circuit breaker test equipment. These
meters were subjected to 2x voltage (240 got 480-500, the 480
recieved ~1200v) and on amperage I think they were tested at
twice to three times the nameplate rating. The failures were as
expected but nothing that (if installed in a proper can) would
cause explosions per se, just melt downs and possibly as stated
above fires from clip to prong resistance. I do appreciate the
concern of the original poster, as I don't like the electronic
meters either. However we have had more C.B., recloser and
sectionalizer failures ( let alone fusable cutouts that exploded
ceramic shards) than electronic meter failures.
However for the record I do not trust the digital meter on my
home. But you've got to use what is available even if it is
certianly less than ideal.
JR

 

[big john]

From your point of view maybe, but for the customer to have his house burn or his kid receive pieces of meter when the meter explode, it is unacceptable....

You have not established that is happening. You simply said that there is a higher incidence of meters being returned to the shop.

I raised a valid point that some of those failures may not even be due to the meter design, and I would bet they aren't, because we've all found failures in meter sockets after we pulled meters that appeared to be working just fine.

...Just search the net for fire house and appliance blown, you will have your answer....

That would be a very poor way to research this and would not give me an accurate picture of the problem.

...You neglect completely tne security by your response and jeeez that is irresponsible

What strikes me as irresponsible is mounting a campaign based on scare-tactics instead of facts.

If you can objectively demonstrate that a meter design is endangering people, I would absolutely be in favor of stopping their installation. You haven't done that.

 

[schlum]

First off I'm assistant engineer for power production, so I don't see
that many "regular" meters in our system. However when these new
meters were first being implemented, there were tests run by the
relay/CB department using circuit breaker test equipment. These
meters were subjected to 2x voltage (240 got 480-500, the 480
recieved ~1200v) and on amperage I think they were tested at
twice to three times the nameplate rating. The failures were as
expected but nothing that (if installed in a proper can) would
cause explosions per se, just melt downs and possibly as stated
above fires from clip to prong resistance. I do appreciate the
concern of the original poster, as I don't like the electronic
meters either. However we have had more C.B., recloser and
sectionalizer failures ( let alone fusable cutouts that exploded
ceramic shards) than electronic meter failures.
However for the record I do not trust the digital meter on my
home. But you've got to use what is available even if it is
certianly less than ideal.
JR

Well, bad tests or not enough testing. i am talking about far more than 2 ou 3 x, if the 12 kv or 25kv cable fall on the 240 line, it is about 50 to 100 x

Seems that you have not read all the 2 incidents i posted were the meters explode.
http://www.localssupportinglocals.ca/blogs/kevin-proteau/power-surge-summerland-were-meters-involved
http://smartmeterharm.org/2014/06/2...e-blows-out-60-70-smart-meters-november-2013/


I can add to that, a engineer working for a meter company was very aware of the danger but he was fired

http://stopsmartmeters.org/2012/01/20/meters-that-endanger-shocking-details-from-a-whistleblower/



and another whistleblower with a 90 years old women injured and went at the hospital because the meter explode
http://www.3aw.com.au/radio/smart-meter-blasts-covered-up-20120221-1tmqr.html


It is not easy to gather informations from everywhere and putting it all on the same page. Utilities don't talk and the employees are afraid to be fired. Thats why i am talking instead of my 2 friends, a technicien and a engineer, they will be fired if they talk. There is too much money involve and really did you think that utilities will admit that their meters are dangerous. Just see what happen with GM, it took more than 40 deads before the truth was revealed. It is Omerta all around.


edit : Utilities want the TOU, the disconnect/reconnect feature, distance reconfiguration, elimination of the meters readers, the customer profile etc. It is not possible with the electromechanical meter

 

[meternerd]

here a 40 meters calibration table design for china

http://meterworks.en.made-in-china.com/product/JolEyNujMZVS/China-Meter-Bench-40-Position.html


and a 48 meters bench
http://www.szclou.com/zndw/info_1259.aspx?itemid=375&lcid=72


I suggest that you visit your local meter shop, you have a lot to learn

Ok...final answer. I don't need to visit my local meter shop. I worked in it for 17 years and still consult. Batch meter testing still requires minimum of three tests, FL 30A, LL 3A and FL @ 50% PF. An acceptance test at FL (30A) is NOT the same as a calibration test. Secondly, UL, NEMA, EUSERC and various other American organizations do regular testing of electrical service equipment including meters during the manufacturing process. Any identified problems must be addressed. The meters we use are 100% tested at the factory and documentation is provided to the buyer. We again randomly test 10% and they must test to +/- .02%. I can't speak for how they do things in China.

I've seen damage from HV lines contacting MV distribution lines. Meters do fail, as does other equipment, but in my personal 30+ years of utility work, I've never seen one explode. I have seen them "launched" out of a meter base, though. No surprise there. Guess I'm just blessed. The main dislike of "smart metering" is the wealth of information that becomes available about customer usage. I don't like it! But the industry is driven by politics and environmental extremism. At least here in the Peoples Repiblik of Kalifornia.

I agree that electronic metering is still evolving, adding new capabilities each generation, but to question the safety based on a few anecdotal reports is irresponsible. Prove it! Nuff said!

 

[schlum]

Ok...final answer. I don't need to visit my local meter shop. I worked in it for 17 years and still consult. Batch meter testing still requires minimum of three tests, FL 30A, LL 3A and FL @ 50% PF. An acceptance test at FL (30A) is NOT the same as a calibration test. Secondly, UL, NEMA, EUSERC and various other American organizations do regular testing of electrical service equipment including meters during the manufacturing process. Any identified problems must be addressed. The meters we use are 100% tested at the factory and documentation is provided to the buyer. We again randomly test 10% and they must test to +/- .02%. I can't speak for how they do things in China.

My experience: 15 min per meter for full test (Full Load, Light Load and Power Factor) without adjustment takes about 15 min on average. 160 X 15 = 2400 min = 40 hours. Long day.....What can I say

Again don't be ridiculous, in batch of 40, in the calibrate mode, it take about 20 min each test to calibrate all the 40, so around 1 hour for the whole calibration(3 tests).
And for the acceptance test, the 3 tests (FL, LL, PF) 5 min and the dial test (1kwh on the register 10 multiplier and i think it is done at 100 A)
near 30 min
So a total of 1h30 for 40 meters, so just a little more than 2 min a meter

You're fired

 

[JRW 70]

Failures

Failures

Once again as I said above we have MANY more failures in
other apparatus (i.e. transformer fires, reclosers that stick
and numerous other issues more-so than the meter "issue")
I do work for the utility and semi regularly attend board
meetings representing power production and my friend is
the supervising engineer for transmission and distribution
I'm not in the least concerned of being fired, in fact our
incedent reports go to NRC, PSC or OSHA depending on
what the nature of the failure was. Most of this info. can
be obtained from those orginasatios fairly easily. So there
really is not any thing to hide here. It is just junk equipment.
End of story

JR

 

[meternerd]

Again don't be ridiculous, in batch of 40, in the calibrate mode, it take about 20 min each test to calibrate all the 40, so around 1 hour for the whole calibration(3 tests).
And for the acceptance test, the 3 tests (FL, LL, PF) 5 min and the dial test (1kwh on the register 10 multiplier and i think it is done at 100 A)
near 30 min
So a total of 1h30 for 40 meters, so just a little more than 2 min a meter

You're fired

You can't fire me...I already quit. Maybe it's a Canadian thing, but here in good old USA utilities talk to each other all the time. If there's a problem, it's better to share the info than to wait for the other guy to learn it the hard way. As far as keeping secrets, all of the utilities I've worked for have the perspective that their job is to provide safe, reliable and affordable power. Manufacturers understand that the word gets around pretty fast when a piece of equipment has problems, so if you make junk, you don't do very well as a business. Problems arise when utilities are pushed to accept agendas based on special interest groups and political considerations. Smart metering is a prime example. Add to that solar, wind, electric cars, assault on the coal industry, nuclear hysteria and it's a wonder we can even stay in operation. I'm not opinionated...I'm just always right.

 

[meternerd]

Once again as I said above we have MANY more failures in
other apparatus (i.e. transformer fires, reclosers that stick
and numerous other issues more-so than the meter "issue")
I do work for the utility and semi regularly attend board
meetings representing power production and my friend is
the supervising engineer for transmission and distribution
I'm not in the least concerned of being fired, in fact our
incedent reports go to NRC, PSC or OSHA depending on
what the nature of the failure was. Most of this info. can
be obtained from those orginasatios fairly easily. So there
really is not any thing to hide here. It is just junk equipment.
End of story

JR

I still haven't seen any studies that support the junk equipment statement. If you read the links that were quoted and look at the pics, I don't see any that definitively showed a meter "explosion" being the source of a fire or injury. I saw pic of meters "smoked" inside that were still intact. Looks to me like it contained the fault. Meter bases and service entrance equipment are NOT meters. Some may have been in operation for years with no maintenance. Then they are changed to electronic meters and fail and it's the meter that's to blame. I have nothing to gain by "plugging" solid state meters, but I am trying to sort out fact from fable. We work with this stuff every day, so safety is a BIG issue.

 

[JRW 70]

Correction to my previous statement

Correction to my previous statement

I take back the statement re. Junk, however quality just seems
to be deteriorating to such a low level (especially in the last ten
years) Unless you buy good controls/relays etc. (too pricey for
the meters on the scale of revenue metering, this is the result)
And I apologize for my previous wording in the upper posts,
it just struck a nerve with me because of the constant downward
force on price thus sacrifing quality in nearly all equipment.
Critical components will most definitely justify the 3-5x cost
in a generating plant, but the accounts payable building would
explode if we bought very high quality digital meters for
resedential/light commercial if they were even available in the
first place. Metering done at distribution (e.g. 12.4/7.2kV) gets the
best but there are not that many out there compared to resedential
So once again I apologize for any offense. It's just our buisness
model ( or so accounting tells us )

Peace
JR

 

[meternerd]

No offense taken. The average solid state residential meter costs us about $60. When we buy in bulk, thousands at a time, a few bucks can add up quick. But safety is not sacrificed. Really not much to a meter when you tear it apart. Voltage & current inputs and a processor/display. The rest is making it fit in the old fashioned socket bases. Amazing they work as well as they do for that price.

Y'all have a great day.

 

[GoldDigger]

No offense taken. The average solid state residential meter costs us about $60. When we buy in bulk, thousands at a time, a few bucks can add up quick. But safety is not sacrificed. Really not much to a meter when you tear it apart. Voltage & current inputs and a processor/display. The rest is making it fit in the old fashioned socket bases.

Unlike a smart meter, which adds a high current contactor and the communication hardware. Which together affect both cost and safety, as well as perceived EMI pollution.