This just looks wrong...

[iwire]

I don't care I do better than the standards that are set as minimum.

Great, your just like the rest of us.

I define workmanship at a higher standard.

Thats fine if your the one paying the bill.

I can't believe that that kind of work is standard practice anywhere.

Believe it.

WHERE DID ALL THE CRAFTSMEN GO!

For me my craftsmanship takes second place to getting my pay check and feeding my family. I enjoy that I can do great electric work, I take pride in supporting my family.

It is really up to the person paying the bill, if they want to pay more for raceway great.

We do not charge for raceway then give them cable.

The fact is most jobs are won on price, and if your bidding pipe against everyone bidding cable your not going to get the job unless you can convince the customer that pipe is worth the up charge.

As these customers look around the neighborhood and see that 99% of the homes have SE services that have lasted for years it will be a tough sell.

 

[iwire]

why not go into the back of the can with the SER?

If the meter is at a normal height outside and the panel is in the basement I would never think of running the SE inside the first floor stud bay down through the plate and into the basement.

The Service disconnect must be nearest the point of entrance, most ECs make that entrance as close to the panel location as possible.

 

[dcspector]

DCspector,

I'm honestly surprised you're taking such a stance against the exposed SE. You're in northern VA? I grew up in Alexandria; it's where I got into the trade: I don't know that I've ever seen an over-head residential service in conduit around those parts. I'm sure you must've seen thousands of SE cable services, and comparatively few of them are in danger of failing because of physical damage.

What made you take such a strong stance against them?

-John

John overhead service not in conduit / rigid for the mast? I am from Tallahassee and Indiana. I am new out here. They keep me in DC on hi-rises. My strong stance is an interp. like a lot of other Inspector gadgets. I like to see good workmanship and exposed SE / SEU is subject to physical damage.

 

[emahler]

John overhead service not in conduit / rigid for the mast? I am from Tallahassee and Indiana. I am new out here. They keep me in DC on hi-rises. My strong stance is an interp. like a lot of other Inspector gadgets. I like to see good workmanship and exposed SE / SEU is subject to physical damage.

dcspector, if you want to get technical, just about anything we install is technically "subject to physical damage"

a flood light mounted on the soffit of a ranch house (9') off the ground is subject to a kid with a baseball bat inflicting damage on it - should a metel cage be required around it?

A post light at the end of a drive way is subject to damage from a teenage driver who can't back up straight - should we require concrete bollards be installed to protect it?

In NJ, we regularly replace cable services that were installed 40-50 yrs ago simply because they are undersized these days.

 

[dcspector]

Yes I know. It is so different no matter where one travels, interpretations, local requirements, etc. I have passed an installation as the OP..Norb pictured except for the dry type SER connector and I would say " Well not the purtiest install I seen......but " I feel most EC's would not leave it exposed.....that's all

 

[bikeindy]

Thats fine if your the one paying the bill.

For me my craftsmanship takes second place to getting my pay check and feeding my family. I enjoy that I can do great electric work, I take pride in supporting my family.

It is really up to the person paying the bill, if they want to pay more for raceway great.

We do not charge for raceway then give them cable.

The fact is most jobs are won on price, and if your bidding pipe against everyone bidding cable your not going to get the job unless you can convince the customer that pipe is worth the up charge.

As these customers look around the neighborhood and see that 99% of the homes have SE services that have lasted for years it will be a tough sell.

From the pic in the OP Your looking at $10 top to make that a better install. here the POCO provides the Meter base. so I buy the rest. I do pay the bills. and my name is on the panel, so what it looks like as well as how long it will last all means something to me. But i don't do work that people are price shopping for, although I am as reasonably priced as any of the other guys. last year I spend $0.00 in advertising 100% of my work comes from my reputation. I'll spend the $10.00

 

[iwire]

last year I spend $0.00 in advertising 100% of my work comes from my reputation. I'll spend the $10.00

Thats awesum..really that is great, the first guy I worked for ran the same sort of shop.

But many of us work for companies, if they take the job as SE that is how it's going to be.

$10.00? I don't think so, but to each their own.

It happens I have not done a service other than my own (in SE no less, because it looked better than rigid.) in a lot of years.

But the IMO the point of a code forum is to discuss what the code requires, not how each of us would do it if given the opportunity. :smile:

 

[emahler]

From the pic in the OP Your looking at $10 top to make that a better install. here the POCO provides the Meter base. so I buy the rest. I do pay the bills. and my name is on the panel, so what it looks like as well as how long it will last all means something to me. But i don't do work that people are price shopping for, although I am as reasonably priced as any of the other guys. last year I spend $0.00 in advertising 100% of my work comes from my reputation. I'll spend the $10.00

ok, it's way more than $10 to redo the one in the OP, and here is why.

The panel is back to back with the meter socket. So you have 2 options. Make a new knock out in the back of the panel, so that you can run a nipple between them, or use an LB, and kick it a little bit.

In option 1 - you will need a ridgid nipple (there is not enough room to put 2 PVC TA's) so now you need a bonding bushing as well.

In option 2 - you need an LB and a PVC Box set.

In both cases, you are right, material is roughly $10.

But here is the rub. This service is in a housing development. Residential new construction. We should all be familiar with the companies in our areas that do residential housing developments. We should all be familiar with the electricians that work for them (I am not trying to offend, simply stating fact)

Now, imaging a housing development with 100 houses in it (not far fetched at all)

Now imagine doing it back to back with a nipple adds 15 mins per panel (plus the tool needed to make the knock out - how many will disappear during the course of 100 houses?)

If the employee cost is $20 hr (total cost for ease of math)

Your increased cost is now $15/house for direct labor and material
$15 * 100 = $1500 cost to make this service right.

I beleive that that is a low cost estimate. I think it would be a bigger difference between extra time due to not finding the tool, running out of locknuts, not having a bonding bushing, etc.

I am not saying that this install is great. I am saying it's code legal and cost effective in the terms of which it was installed.

Had this been a service upgrade for one house, yes, it's a $10/fix for you the owner. But it's a $40/fix if your employee does it.

 

[bikeindy]

ok, it's way more than $10 to redo the one in the OP, and here is why.

The panel is back to back with the meter socket. So you have 2 options. Make a new knock out in the back of the panel, so that you can run a nipple between them, or use an LB, and kick it a little bit.

In option 1 - you will need a ridgid nipple (there is not enough room to put 2 PVC TA's) so now you need a bonding bushing as well.

In option 2 - you need an LB and a PVC Box set.

In both cases, you are right, material is roughly $10.

But here is the rub. This service is in a housing development. Residential new construction. We should all be familiar with the companies in our areas that do residential housing developments. We should all be familiar with the electricians that work for them (I am not trying to offend, simply stating fact)

Now, imaging a housing development with 100 houses in it (not far fetched at all)

Now imagine doing it back to back with a nipple adds 15 mins per panel (plus the tool needed to make the knock out - how many will disappear during the course of 100 houses?)

If the employee cost is $20 hr (total cost for ease of math)

Your increased cost is now $15/house for direct labor and material
$15 * 100 = $1500 cost to make this service right.

I beleive that that is a low cost estimate. I think it would be a bigger difference between extra time due to not finding the tool, running out of locknuts, not having a bonding bushing, etc.

I am not saying that this install is great. I am saying it's code legal and cost effective in the terms of which it was installed.

Had this been a service upgrade for one house, yes, it's a $10/fix for you the owner. But it's a $40/fix if your employee does it.

I did not say REDO anywhere. $10 in material extra over what they spent to do that install. I don't see how it takes any longer to do it in raceway than not esspecially if they are back to back. But Iwire is right this is no longer a discussion about code. And I never disagreed with the code aspect.

 

[George Stolz]

Another factor in tract home building is that when details change, then folks that already bought a house in the neighborhood feels short-changed for missing out.

If the first few houses in a neighborhood are built with SE services, and then the EC were to switch over to conduit-mast services, then the SE-supplied folks might complain that their services aren't as safe, or as attractive and make noise. It may not mean much, but noise is annoying and uses time that could be applied more productively.

In all new construction I have done in tract neighborhoods, the utilities are buried, so this is a non-issue for me. FWIW, all overhead services in this area are in conduit, the SOP for the northeast took me by surprise the first time I saw it, too.

If this is only relevant in remodels, then it would seem to me that customers could be handled more effectively, and be convinced one way or the other depending on the EC's preference. I don't see how an EC would lose a service call solely based on the wiring method chosen, if they communicated the reasons for their preference appropriately.

JMO,

Edit to add: BikeIndy, good to see you back at the forum.

 

[stickboy1375]

I perfer an SE service rather than a raceway, It's smaller in size and looks better on a house rather than PVC, (IMO) For what its worth, If I can't do a back to back install, and I have to exit the meter from the bottom, I will sleeve the SEU in PVC... But none of this really matters since who cares how someone else does an install as long as it meets code...

 

[JohnE]

I used to prefer a service with SE rather than conduit. If the house had wood diding or anything except vinyl. I think it looks better. But with the vinyl siding I don't think the SE clips keep things looking as good. I've been piping them for about 12 years now.

And very often I'll pipe the riser and drop SE out the bottom to enter the basement.

 

[Davis9]

I perfer an SE service rather than a raceway, It's smaller in size and looks better on a house rather than PVC, (IMO) For what its worth, If I can't do a back to back install, and I have to exit the meter from the bottom, I will sleeve the SEU in PVC... But none of this really matters since who cares how someone else does an install as long as it meets code...

I like to sleeve it as well, for protection:wink: Sometimes it's just SE out though, as long as not in a Driveway.

Tom

 

[kbsparky]

I did not say REDO anywhere. $10 in material extra over what they spent to do that install. I don't see how it takes any longer to do it in raceway than not esspecially if they are back to back. But Iwire is right this is no longer a discussion about code. And I never disagreed with the code aspect.

While I agree in principle with your statements, you can't install the meter and panel "back-to-back" on a project supplied by PEPCO (see earlier post about this in thread).

There has to be other POCOs mired in their own bureaucracy that enforce similar standards ..

 

[racerdave3]

I don't care I do better than the standards that are set as minimum. I define workmanship at a higher standard. I can't believe that that kind of work is standard practice anywhere. WHERE DID ALL THE CRAFTSMEN GO! here I made this table for you one of the legs is 1/4" shorter than the other 3 but it meets standars just stick some newspaper under it so it doesn't rock. WHO CARES IF IT LOOKS LIKE CRAP!


I DO! damn

So just because your personal opinion is that a sevice that is done in SE looks like crap, it means that the job results in an installation of poor workmanship? I personally take great exception to that comment. Every installation that I have ever done that involved the use of SE cable has been "in a neat and workmanlike mannner" and displayed the highest level of workmanship AND CRAFTSMANSHIP.........and furthermore has never failed in any way shape or form. If you are so anti-cable, does that mean that you also have anti-romex issues when wiring residential? Are all of your installations done in MC cable, conduit? I think the bottom line is that the NEC approves acceptable methods for all installations, and the AHJ follows those quidelines in the inspection process. Any of these acceptable installations can be done in a neat and workmanlike manner by a skilled craftsman, or just thown together by a hack. If you feel that strongly about your opposition to the uses of SE cable for service installations, then perhaps you should convey your concerns to the cade making panels and have them exclude the use of SE cable in the NEC.

 

[George Stolz]

Any of these acceptable installations can be done in a neat and workmanlike manner by a skilled craftsman, or just thown together by a hack.

And just what do you have against hacks?!?
.
.
.
.
Just kidding.

Guys, simmer down already, wow. People out east are cool with it, and don't have reported incidents of problems. Eyes would pop out of their heads around here, because it's different.

Keep an open mind.

 

[mdshunk]

For all you SE cable haters out there, check out these pictures I snapped of what might be the biggest exposed SER cable installation I've ever seen:

 

[dcspector]

marc......that is......well.....I have nothing to say...

 

[mdshunk]

marc......that is......well.....I have nothing to say...

Yeah, I know what you mean. I feel the same way. I have this uncontrollable urge to go up and hammer a nail in one of those cables.

 

[dcspector]

marc...............