two electricians on a job

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bobsherwood

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Dallas TX
For safety reasons, I work my employees in pairs. We do maintenance work for a major university. Every job we appoach is "hot" on arrival. My boss is forcing me to stop this practice and work the electricians alone. I feel it's worth the little extra money spent to work in pairs. What I need is support here. Does anyone know of any literature that will back me up? HELP! Seems so wrong to me ...
 
I prefer to work alone for safety reasons. Especially when working hot for troubleshooting. I know I will get chastised for this, but, I have ran into too many situations where "extra hands" get in the way.
 
bobsherwood said:
For safety reasons, I work my employees in pairs. We do maintenance work for a major university. Every job we appoach is "hot" on arrival. My boss is forcing me to stop this practice and work the electricians alone. I feel it's worth the little extra money spent to work in pairs. What I need is support here. Does anyone know of any literature that will back me up? HELP! Seems so wrong to me ...
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Sorry, nothing solid on this unless it is >600V. If so then you can look at:

OSHA 1910.269(l)(1)(i) Except as provided in paragraph (l)(1)(ii) of this section, at least two employees
shall be present while the following types of work are being performed:

(l)(1)(i)(A) Installation, removal, or repair of lines that are energized at more than 600 volts,

(l)(1)(i)(B) Installation, removal, or repair of deenergized lines if an employee is exposed to
contact with other parts energized at more than 600 volts,

(l)(1)(i)(C) Installation, removal, or repair of equipment, such as transformers, capacitors,
and regulators, if an employee is exposed to contact with parts energized at more
than 600 volts,

(l)(1)(i)(D) Work involving the use of mechanical equipment, other than insulated aerial lifts,
near parts energized at more than 600 volts, and

(l)(1)(i)(E) Other work that exposes an employee to electrical hazards greater than or equal
to those posed by operations that are specifically listed in paragraphs (l)(1)(i)(A)
through (l)(1)(i)(D) of this section.
(l)(1)(ii) Paragraph (l)(1)(i) of this section does not apply to the following operations:

(l)(1)(ii)(A) Routine switching of circuits, if the employer can demonstrate that conditions at
the site allow this work to be performed safely,

(l)(1)(ii)(B) Work performed with live-line tools if the employee is positioned so that he or she
is neither within reach of nor otherwise exposed to contact with energized parts,
and

(l)(1)(ii)(C) Emergency repairs to the extent necessary to safeguard the general public.



I agree with you, should be a requirement, but it is just a good practice. Now you can get an extra person there, who is CPR trained and trained in the release from energized parts, which really needs to be an electrician via this artice.




1910.269(b)(1) "Cardiopulmonary resuscitation and first aid training." When employees are
performing work on or associated with exposed lines or equipment energized at 50
volts or more, persons trained in first aid including cardiopulmonary resuscitation
(CPR) shall be available as follows:

(b)(1)(i) For field work involving two or more employees at a work location, at least two
trained persons shall be available. However, only one trained person need be
available if all new employees are trained in first aid, including CPR, within 3
months of their hiring dates.

(b)(1)(ii) For fixed work locations such as generating stations, the number of trained
persons available shall be sufficient to ensure that each employee exposed to
electric shock can be reached within 4 minutes by a trained person. However,
where the existing number of employees is insufficient to meet this requirement
(at a remote substation, for example), all employees at the work location shall be
trained.



I have done hundreds of jobs on campuses across the country and I dont think any of them can meet the 4 minute requirement, therefore requiring a 2nd person. And unless you want to make your 1st responders trained in release from electrical parts, it is going to have to be an electrician. (Easier to train electrician in CPR than medical person on shutting down a substation or panel )
 
Hockeyoligist 2,
When we are trouble shooting, only one will be doing the work. Dressed in full PPE. The other will maintain a safe work boundry. So, still two electricians are needed.
 
zog said:
That is the most dangerous thing I have ever heard. How is this safer??



You mean those "extra hands" that can turn off power and give you CPR??
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In my case, the only time I have ever had a safety problem, it was with someone trying to help. Last week I was checking out an old actuator on our workbench. My coworker started taking off the wire nuts after we finished without killing the power, I saw him from the corner of my eye and grabbed the disconnect in time. I have been "bumped" into live stuff by coworkers trying to help. I have had them stick screwdrivers in places that they shouldn't have been. I have had coworkers flip on a switch. I could go on...........

If I am working alone, I have complete control over all of the power and actions. When working live, I don't want anyone close! If they are an "attendant" that's fine, just stay clear of my area!
 
bobsherwood said:
For safety reasons, I work my employees in pairs. We do maintenance work for a major university. Every job we appoach is "hot" on arrival. My boss is forcing me to stop this practice and work the electricians alone. I feel it's worth the little extra money spent to work in pairs. What I need is support here. Does anyone know of any literature that will back me up? HELP! Seems so wrong to me ...
Click to expand...

your boss needs to strap on the tools, put on the beekeeper suit, and go
repair an ATS or something. alone. it'll keep him out of your hair.

unless, of course, he's an administrative type who has never done hot work
before. in that case......:D:D

your boss needs to strap on the tools, put on the beekeeper suit, and go
repair an ATS or something. alone. it'll keep him out of everyone's hair.

one of the things i find most annoying is being given direction in a matter that
the person giving directions has never actually done the thing he is instructing
me to do.

having someone nearby is a good idea even if the work is not hot work.
electricians usually are paired off for that reason. but you already knew that....

i personally find that two people well paired together accomplish significantly
more than the same two people working separately.

poorly paired people, however, stand around, smoke cigarettes, and chat. :mad:
 
hockeyoligist2 said:
In my case, the only time I have ever had a safety problem, it was with someone trying to help. Last week I was checking out an old actuator on our workbench. My coworker started taking off the wire nuts after we finished without killing the power, I saw him from the corner of my eye and grabbed the disconnect in time. I have been "bumped" into live stuff by coworkers trying to help. I have had them stick screwdrivers in places that they shouldn't have been. I have had coworkers flip on a switch. I could go on...........

If I am working alone, I have complete control over all of the power and actions. When working live, I don't want anyone close! If they are an "attendant" that's fine, just stay clear of my area!
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I can definitely see that point. ESPECIALLY if it's a helper.
 
We used to run two man trucks, but do to the economy, a lot of customers are wanting to cut costs and not pay for the extra person. The competition is more than hungry enough to oblige, so we have had to cut back to keep their business.
 
hockeyoligist2 said:
In my case, the only time I have ever had a safety problem, it was with someone trying to help. Last week I was checking out an old actuator on our workbench. My coworker started taking off the wire nuts after we finished without killing the power, I saw him from the corner of my eye and grabbed the disconnect in time. I have been "bumped" into live stuff by coworkers trying to help. I have had them stick screwdrivers in places that they shouldn't have been. I have had coworkers flip on a switch. I could go on...........

If I am working alone, I have complete control over all of the power and actions. When working live, I don't want anyone close! If they are an "attendant" that's fine, just stay clear of my area!
Click to expand...

There is this new thing called Lock out-Tagout, and it is not an option, it is an OSHA requirement.

There are 3 types of electricians, safe, lucky, and dead.
 
I just do not see that much of a cost savings in taking away a two man team. When the team works well together, the job is done even more than twice as fast.
 
zog said:
There is this new thing called Lock out-Tagout, and it is not an option, it is an OSHA requirement.

There are 3 types of electricians, safe, lucky, and dead.
Click to expand...

Theres also another saying "There's old electricians,and there's bold electricians, but theres no old bold electricians":smile:
 
When I was working as a facility electrician, we always liked working in pairs even if the boss didn't. If you are well paired, as someone mentioned, instead of having to come down the ladder the other guy is already handing you what you need or if you are forward thinking and notice something coming up that you didn't originally think about, you can continue working while he goes to the shop or truck and gets parts or tools. When changing lights we used to always catch guff, but it sure is nice having a ground guy and not having to climb up and down the ladder all day.

To answer your question and there is nothing that requires it.

But, I also agree with fulthrotl.:D I hate a guy that seems to know how you should do your job even if he's never done it.
 
bobsherwood said:
I just do not see that much of a cost savings in taking away a two man team. When the team works well together, the job is done even more than twice as fast.
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Most apprentises today are just interested in drawing a paycheck and don't contribute that much. They want an office job where they think they can just shoot the bull all day and pull down big bucks! :roll:The one that I presently have though, is very interested in the trade and is chomping at the bit to get his license. I will eventually put him in new construction to learn how everything is put together from the ground up.
 
My helper is also a very good friend of many years. I believe working with him is definately safer then working alone. Not to mention in general, 2 guys on a job makes it go multiple times faster then 1 electrician doing the same job.

~Matt
 
hockeyoligist2 said:
In my case, the only time I have ever had a safety problem, it was with someone trying to help. Last week I was checking out an old actuator on our workbench. My coworker started taking off the wire nuts after we finished without killing the power, I saw him from the corner of my eye and grabbed the disconnect in time. I have been "bumped" into live stuff by coworkers trying to help. I have had them stick screwdrivers in places that they shouldn't have been. I have had coworkers flip on a switch. I could go on...........

If I am working alone, I have complete control over all of the power and actions. When working live, I don't want anyone close! If they are an "attendant" that's fine, just stay clear of my area!
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The probability is the next time you have a problem may be your last, if you work alone and hot.
What is wrong with holding a pretask analysis and enforcing a safe work zone around your area?

Secondly if I were forced to work with somebody who butted into a job without reason or
warning I would get a new partner or a new job.
 
cowboyjwc said:
If you are well paired, as someone mentioned, instead of having to come down the ladder the other guy is already handing you what you need...
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John, as soon as I read that I had a mental image of one of the funniest things I'd seen - A journeyman on a 8' ladder measuring, and a journeyman on the ground with a bender in his hand. As I watched, one would complete his task, hand off to the other, and then wait for his turn. Nothing like seeing two guys getting one guy's work done in a day. :)

I know that isn't what you're saying, but it sprang to mind. :)
 
George Stolz said:
John, as soon as I read that I had a mental image of one of the funniest things I'd seen - A journeyman on a 8' ladder measuring, and a journeyman on the ground with a bender in his hand. As I watched, one would complete his task, hand off to the other, and then wait for his turn. Nothing like seeing two guys getting one guy's work done in a day. :)

I know that isn't what you're saying, but it sprang to mind. :)
Click to expand...

I didn't say that we always "needed" two guys.:D
 
zog said:
There is this new thing called Lock out-Tagout, and it is not an option, it is an OSHA requirement.

There are 3 types of electricians, safe, lucky, and dead.
Click to expand...

My only problem with lock-out-tag-out is I don't have "magic meters". Mine will not read the amps on a motor or allow me to check voltage without the power on...... :) I lock-out when I can and wear my PPE.
 
hockeyoligist2 said:
My only problem with lock-out-tag-out is I don't have "magic meters". Mine will not read the amps on a motor or allow me to check voltage without the power on...... :) I lock-out when I can and wear my PPE.
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I was replying to the types of work in your post here:

hockeyoligist2 said:
In my case, the only time I have ever had a safety problem, it was with someone trying to help. Last week I was checking out an old actuator on our workbench. My coworker started taking off the wire nuts after we finished without killing the power, I saw him from the corner of my eye and grabbed the disconnect in time. I have been "bumped" into live stuff by coworkers trying to help. I have had them stick screwdrivers in places that they shouldn't have been. I have had coworkers flip on a switch. I could go on...........
Click to expand...

Taking amp readings has to be done energized but these examples you gave wouldnt be a safety hazard if you followed NFPA 70E/OSHA rules, including LOTO. Having a co-worker "flip on a switch" means you were working on something with the power off and not locked out.
 
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