under-cabinet lights

[jimwalker]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Ok i just solved my illegal UC that was plugged into a SA outlet.I installed a receptacle outlet from a GP branch circuit.And being that it serves the UC lights it is not on a gfci as it does not serve the counter top.Placed a large sign "warning this outlet is for plug in lights only,use for a toaster or coffee maker will result in a fine or jail or both "

 

[jwelectric]

Re: under-cabinet lights

How many inspectors that are members would while doing a final on a house saw under cabinet lighting with a cord plugged into a counter receptacle would sign off on the final?

In 210.70 (A) (1) Exception No. 1 I am allowed to install a receptacle in lieu of the required lighting outlet. This is allowed so now I don?t have to permanently (hard wire) install a fixture. I can now make a direct connection to the premises wiring through a receptacle.

The definition of a lighting outlet states it is intended for the direct connection of a fixture. Take note that the words ?permanently installed? as outlined in the definition of appliances were not used. If ?permanently installed? had been used then the exception in 210.70 could not be applied. Another lighting outlet outlined in the definition is a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.

The definition states either a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder or a receptacle that is the outlet intended for the direct connection (not permanent) of a lampholder or fixture.

Some where between the #12 feeding that box and the rays of emitted light we will find a fixture and a place it is connected. This point of connection is by definition a lighting outlet. We not only intended to but now have proved we intend to. This violates 210.52 (B) (2) because we intended to connect a light fixture to the small appliance circuit.

If this intent to connect a light fixture to a small appliance circuit is wrong at the time of inspection wouldn?t it be wrong at any time? Not saying that it is enforceable or that it is never violated.


[ April 30, 2005, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: under-cabinet lights

So what is the legal solution ? They sold that UC with the intention of us plugging it in.It is UL approved.It is a violation to remove the cord and hard wire it.It comes with a method to fasten it permanently.

 

[dana1028]

Re: under-cabinet lights

For what it's worth:

NFPA gives free 'Analysis of Code Change' classes for states that adopt the NEC....CA finally got around to adopting the 2002 NEC and yesterday I attended an update class given by NFPA with an NFPA staff instructor.

During break I asked the instructor (and another very knowledgable electrical inspector) about this forum discussion - i.e. did the use of a countertop recepatacle for the attached under cabinet luminaire constitute a code violation. The position of the NFPA instructor and the electrical inspector was that this constituted a code violation.

Ultimately this type of installation, if inspected by an AHJ, would be determined at that time.

Personally, I would call this out as a violation and issue a correction notice.....the inspector in the next town might call it differently.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:
I can now make a direct connection to the premises wiring through a receptacle.

The definition of a lighting outlet states it is intended for the direct connection of a fixture.

Sure.

210.6 (B)(3) Cord-and-plug-connected or permanently connected utilization equipment

210.6 (C)(6) Cord-and-plug-connected or permanently connected utilization equipment

210.6 (D)(2) Cord-and-plug-connected or permanently connected utilization equipment other than luminaires (fixtures)

422.16(B)(3)...shall be permitted to be permanently connected, or only for ease in servicing or installation, cord-and-plug-connected...

640.21(E) ...Connection shall be made either by using approved plugs and receptacles or by direct connection within an approved enclosure.

695.4(A) Direct Connection. The supply conductors shall directly connect the power source to either a listed fire pump controller or listed combination fire pump controller and power transfer switch.

(I'm sure your inspector will understand why the fire pump being cord-and-plug-connected is really a direct connection, since there's nothing else to plug it into! :roll: )

I don't know, but the NEC seems to, perhaps, maybe, in some minute way, draw a distinction between a permanent and cord-and-plug connection. It's probably a rash of typos and errors, though.

Give it up!

[ April 30, 2005, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by dana1028:
During break I asked the instructor (and another very knowledgable electrical inspector) about this forum discussion - i.e. did the use of a countertop recepatacle for the attached under cabinet luminaire constitute a code violation. The position of the NFPA instructor and the electrical inspector was that this constituted a code violation.

Personally, I would call this out as a violation and issue a correction notice.....

On what grounds would you fail it? What reference would you cite?

the inspector in the next town might call it differently.

Is the next town working with a different version of the NEC?

Edit: Out of morbid curiousity, did these esteemed gentlemen reference the NEC and make a judgement, or answer from the top of their head?

[ April 30, 2005, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[pierre]

Re: under-cabinet lights

JW

How many locations in different buildings do we see "lighting fixtures" plugged in to a receptacle.
More than we can remember.

The NEC is not calling a fixture with a male plug a "lighting Outlet". It is a table lamp or a floor lamp, etc... These table lamps can and do plug into receptacle outlet, whether the receptacle outlets are convienent receptacle outlets or small appliance receptacle outlets. Plugging a table lamp into a receptacle does not make the receptacle a lighting outlet.

Why are you so bent on calling this a violation?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by pierre:
JW

How many locations in different buildings do we see "lighting fixtures" plugged in to a receptacle.
More than we can remember.

The NEC is not calling a fixture with a male plug a "lighting Outlet". It is a table lamp or a floor lamp, etc... These table lamps can and do plug into receptacle outlet, whether the receptacle outlets are convienent receptacle outlets or small appliance receptacle outlets. Plugging a table lamp into a receptacle does not make the receptacle a lighting outlet.

Why are you so bent on calling this a violation?

Welcome to the debate, I take it that you do understand that the lights are allowed to be installed on the same circuit as the receptacles that are installed on a general purpose circuit. 210.70 (A) (1) Exception 1 gives me permission to switch one of these receptacles in lieu of the lighting outlet.

The code states that the point I intend to draw current for a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder is the lighting outlet.

As outlined above a receptacle can be used in lieu of the or as the lighting outlet so there fore a receptacle can be the lighting outlet.

The very instant that I prove my intent to plug a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord into half of a duplex that half becomes a lighting outlet. This is the outlet that I intend to draw current for this fixture.

Somewhere between the light bulb and the wiring in the wall there is a fixture and a point of intended connection and the very physical existence of this constitutes, by definition in 100, a lighting outlet thus a violation of 210.52 (B) (2)

The statements quoted above
During break I asked the instructor (and another very knowledgable electrical inspector) about this forum discussion - i.e. did the use of a countertop recepatacle for the attached under cabinet luminaire constitute a code violation. The position of the NFPA instructor and the electrical inspector was that this constituted a code violation.

Why are you so bent on calling this a violation?

Because it is. I know that this is done all the time and there isn?t much that can be done about it but that don?t change the words that are written. What I have a hard time accepting is that there are so many people willing to look over the detail that has went into making sure there was enough power to supply the small appliances with out trying to install lights on them too.

Edited to add----

How many locations in different buildings do we see "lighting fixtures" plugged in to a receptacle.

I wonder how many of these fixtures that are plugged into a receptacle fall under the calculation under Table 220.12 General Lighting Loads by Occupancy or was part of the total load for lighting. In this case these lights would be connected to the lighting circuit and not the small appliance circuit, wouldn?t you think?

[ May 01, 2005, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Sitting here building a final exam for my NEC class when it hit me like a storm.

In 210.11 Branch Circuits Required Branch circuits for lighting and for appliances, in 210.11 (C) I am told that I am required to in install small appliance, laundry and bathroom circuits and they must have a 20 ampere overcurrent device.

When I get ready to calculate the load for the service I use Table 220.12 General Lighting Loads by Occupancy. Note the title of this table.

Well I am a easy instructor and I am going to let the class have the easy one, yes the Optional Feeder and Service Load Calculations for a Dwelling Unit as outlined in 220.82

Let?s look at (B) General Loads. Hey here in 1 what does that say?
3 volt-amperes/ft 2 for general lighting and general-use receptacles. I guess that the general lights and receptacles are to be on the same circuit.

Guess what? In 2 I can add in the small appliance and laundry.

In 3 and 4 I take the name plate rating.

This should make it very easy for anyone to see that other than those circuits outlined in 2,3,4 and part (C) of 220.82 are lighting outlets. Every receptacle outlet in the house and the required outside receptacles except those outlined by 2, 3, 4 and (C) are part of the lighting load. To plug a lamp or fixture in one of these receptacles would be connecting it to the lighting circuit and no problem. This is where they figured to be in the first place.

They was nice enough to allow us to include the small appliance and laundry circuit in the rating of the service so why would we want to intermingle the circuits together.
They have been very careful to point out that there is a difference in the circuits and also mandated that the small appliance and laundry circuits are to have no other outlets. 210.11 (C) (2) for the laundry and 210.52 (B) (2) for the small appliance.

George you made reference to 210.6 three times above but not one of them make mention to Luminaires (lighting fixtures) and they are outlined in A, B, C, and D. E doesn?t mention them although only A applies to dwelling units.
I took note that you also pointed out 422 for fastened in place appliances and also went to ARTICLE 640 Audio Signal Processing, Amplification, and Reproduction Equipment and ARTICLE 695 Fire Pumps.

I thought we was debating the small appliance and lighting outlets. I have tried to remain in 100 and 210 except as referenced elsewhere. This time I did jump to 220 for a different visual of the three major multioutlet circuits allowed by the code in dwelling units. I have quoted article and section that mandated that a light fixture be install on a general purpose circuit and article and section that forbids the lighting fixture to be installed to a small appliance circuit. So I ask for some to show me an exception that allows the lighting outlet or fixture to be supplied by the small appliance circuit.

 

[electrofelon]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Thanks everyone, throughout the whole 12 hours i was working today, I new I could come home and get a chuckle by seeing how many more responses came in. The same was true after my 12 hour day yesterday and hopefully will be tomorrow! I propose that a refridgerator cannot be plugged into the SA circuit - They are not small appliances, unless it is a small dorm-style one, i'd let that go... I don't have time to dig around and look up code sections right now but my logic is this:

"The two or more small appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets"

"no other" means no outlets other than the receptacle outlets, not no outlets other than the receptacle outlets and the receptacle outlet itself. That would be like putting a cookie in the jar and then taking it right out again. On that note, im going to take some ice cream out of my freezer, a large appliance on the small appiance circuit, and not put it right back in until some of it is used.

 

[iwire]

Re: under-cabinet lights

This thread has gotten overly complicated. Can we try to keep it simpler?

IMO, the problem here is misunderstanding of the term lighting outlet.

JW or anyone, lets say you are inspecting my work and you see a cord and plug connected light fixture fastened under the upper cabinet. This light fixture is plugged into the SA circuit.

What code section will you write down that shows this as a violation?

Remember as an inspector all you need to provide is a one code section, no further explanations are required.

 

[bradleyelectric]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by physis:

Charles B., we know you've made a logical faux pas, all we're asking for is a full confession and, I promise, the forum will go easy on you.

That's great, I love it!!

 

[George Stolz]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:
The code states that the point I intend to draw current for a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder is the lighting outlet.

False.

An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.

As outlined above a receptacle can be used in lieu of the or as the lighting outlet so there fore a receptacle can be the lighting outlet.

False. You cannot physically directly connect a luminaire/lampholder to a receptacle.

George you made reference to 210.6 three times ... I thought we was debating the small appliance and lighting outlets.

JW, your fundamental error in thinking boils down to a lack of understanding between "directly connected" or "permanently connected" conductors and "cord-and-plug-connected" conductors. I was illustrating that throughout the entire NEC, there is a well-established distinction between these two installations.

By your reasoning, if there is nowhere else to plug in a piece of utilization equipment but the receptacle you provide, it's directly connected. How do you explain 695.4(A), then? How would you justify that equipment that should never be unplugged is ok as it is, since "there's nowhere else to plug it in. It is directly connected." No, direct connection is not the same as cord-and-plug-connected.

If you ignore the fundamentals and the definitions you're going to be fundamentally wrong.

 

[bradleyelectric]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jimwalker:
So if this light fixture is permanent then we have another issue.We can not use this method of wiring to a fixed fixture,it must be hard wired.

ok, so how do you solve this problem when a homeowner calls and wants undercounter lights installed and doesn't want cords hanging from them?

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: under-cabinet lights

During break I asked the instructor (and another very knowledgable electrical inspector) about this forum discussion - i.e. did the use of a countertop recepatacle for the attached under cabinet luminaire constitute a code violation.

Seems you left out the ony part that matter in this whole silly argument. "Cord and plug connected"

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by bradleyelectric:
so how do you solve this problem when a homeowner calls and wants undercounter lights installed and doesn't want cords hanging from them?

Since they are under the counter you can put the receptacels in the cabinets and just plug 'em in. you won't see the cord. (you won't see the light either but...) But that is one of my pet peeves.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Bob
This does not comply to section 210.52 (B) (2)

electrofelon
in 210.52 (B) (1) It clearly states that, and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment. The refrigerator is allowed but I still haven?t nor seen a reference by any one in this forum that allows a light fixture.

Show me code reference. Am I not showing them to you?

georgestolz
The definition is wrong not me. I have only quoted code section and you have quoted the requirements of allowing a cord and plug to be used as a disconnecting means.
Show me where it states that I can install a lighting outlet on a small appliance circuit.
I have pointed out that 210.52 (B) (2) forbids this

The NEC Handbook has made this clear for more than fifteen years and has not been shot down. Every seminar that I have been to and this question has come up the answer was ?not allowed?.

Until some one shows me an article or section that allows the lighting circuit to intermingle with the small appliance circuit I will stand on IT IS NOT ALLOWED.

 

[iwire]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Bob
This does not comply to section 210.52 (B) (2)

A cord and plug connected light fixture is not a "lighting outlet"

 

[iwire]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:
The NEC Handbook has made this clear for more than fifteen years and has not been shot down. Every seminar that I have been to and this question has come up the answer was ?not allowed?.

I agree it is cystal clear you may not hard wire the lighting to the SA circuit.

And I am sure that every source that you asked about this was assuming a hard wired connection.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: under-cabinet lights

(See my post below.)

[ May 01, 2005, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]