under-cabinet lights

[jwelectric]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Have you decided what that "other outlet" is yet?

How about you help me figure it out? The definition of a lighting outlet is the connection to the circuit. Now if we think of the receptacle and cord cap as being the point of connection I suppose it could be either the receptacle or maybe the cord cap.

If we think of the cord as being an extension of the branch circuits then I suppose it could be at the wire nuts. Then again it could be argued that it is the point that the bulb draws current. You know this could be a point for another debate, what do you think?

Back to the problem at hand. We have a light fixture and at some point it is going to be connected to the small appliance branch circuit and receive current. This constitutes an outlet as defined in 100.
Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. The definition of outlet gives only one clue, a point on the wiring system at which current is taken. Well we know that it is at some point, but where?

Wait a minute! We got an outlet; this outlet feeds a light fixture. Can?t do this because of 210.52 (B) (2) so there is no point to figure where it is, is there?
:roll:

 

[iwire]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Have you decided what that "other outlet" is yet?

How about you help me figure it out? The definition of a lighting outlet is the connection to the circuit.

I will try to help you but you seem to be unreachable.

So you still contend any luminaire is a lighting outlet.

Lets look at the definition again.

Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.

Strange how in the definition of lighting outlet they include luminaire (lighting fixture) as one of the items you can connect to a lighting outlet.

So by your interruption a lighting outlet is intended for the direct connection of a lighting outlet.

Where does it end?

Is the lamp itself a lighting outlet?

Bless your crazy heart.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Roger and Bob
The term ?Bless your heart? is a statement of confusion that I can?t under stand why two outstanding members of this forum can?t see what is in front them.

210.52 (B) (2) clearly states that there can be no other outlets on the small appliance circuit except those for which 210.52 (B) outlines. Take notice that (B) (2) is a subsection to (B) and only address what is out lined in (B).
Exception 1 to (B) (1) affords me relief to install receptacles on a lighting circuit for lights.

Should I decide to install a under cabinet light and plug it in, then the first exception found in 210.52 (B) (1) is how I am required to install it.

Now prove me wrong.

 

[iwire]

Re: under-cabinet lights

A luminaire is not an outlet.

Perhaps looking at two definitions will help, the first describes an lighting outlet.

Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.

The second describes an outlet of any type.

outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

The fixture, luminaire or utilization equipment whatever you want to cal it is not now or ever will be a lighting outlet as described by the NEC.

Why you fail to see that is puzzling?

My best guess is that stubborn pride is keeping you from seeing things for what they are.

I notice you have not responded directly to any code sections I have pointed out.

That means either responding to me is beneath you or you just do not have any answers.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by iwire:

I notice you have not responded directly to any code sections I have pointed out.
That means either responding to me is beneath you or you just do not have any answers.

edited to add--
Please take note that I did not leave 210.52 (B) the section for the small appliances nor did "I" referance any other section of the code.

[ May 01, 2005, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Should I desire to install a under cabinet lighting unit and cord and plug it the exception in 210.52 (B) (1) is the requirement for the installation.

It is not a requirement, it's a permissive exception. That is another fundamental concept you don't agree with: mandatory vs. permissive statements.

Please take note that I did not leave 210.52 (B) the section for the small appliances nor did "I" referance any other section of the code.

I referenced a broad spectrum of codes to illustrate a point, and to try to teach you the difference between cord-and-plug-connection and permanent connection, and how it related to the subject at hand.

If you don't want to listen, I'll save my breath.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:
I see nothing allowing a light on a small appliance in that article only that I can cord and plug a permanent connected piece of equipment.

That's truely brilliant. You can cord-and-plug-connect permanently connected equipment? Are you messing with us?

How much does it cost to take your class?

 

[peter d]

Re: under-cabinet lights

What is this argument about?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: under-cabinet lights

I think it has something to do with this thread.

I'm sure the answer is in there somewhere.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by georgestolz:
It is not a requirement, it's a permissive exception. That is another fundamental concept you don't agree with: mandatory vs. permissive statements.

Yes George you are correct it is giving me permission to install a receptacle on the general lighting circuit to plug a light into.
The statement ?shall be permitted? is substituting ``the inspector must allow [item A or method A]'' for ``[item A or method A] shall be permitted'' generally clarifies the interpretation.
Using the permitted exception you can install a under cabinet light and plug it into a receptacle that is not part of the small appliance circuit, which is strictly forbidden.

That's truely brilliant. You can cord-and-plug-connect permanently connected equipment? Are you messing with us?

No just quoting 210.6 (B) (3) as asked to do by Iwire

How much does it cost to take your class?

Depends which one you are interested in. I have a couple that I teach on line. Shoot me a private message and I will give you some information on them. You better hurry because last registration is next week. They start at $60 for a thirty hour class.

I referenced a broad spectrum of codes to illustrate a point, and to try to teach you the difference between cord-and-plug-connection and permanent connection, and how it related to the subject at hand.

Yes you did reference a lot of code but not once did I see any thing that will allow the under cabinet to be plugged into the small appliance receptacle. The references that I have made stick to 210.52 (B) the very circuit we are discussing.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Using the permitted exception you can install a under cabinet light and plug it into a receptacle that is not part of the small appliance circuit, which is strictly forbidden.

By (B)(2)? Did you find that other outlet yet?

That's truely brilliant. You can cord-and-plug-connect permanently connected equipment? Are you messing with us?

No just quoting 210.6 (B) (3) as asked to do by Iwire

You've got to be kidding if you don't understand the significance of that code to our discussion. You don't see an "either / or", "give or take", "black or white" aspect to that code? That "cord-and-plug-connected" and "permanently connected" seem to have a similar relationship??? I.E. They are opposites???

You've got to be messing with us.

Seven chipmunks, sitting on a branch, eatin' lots of sunflowers at my uncle's ranch. It's like you're worried about Gorgonzolla cheese when it's clearly Brie time, baby!

Name that movie.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: under-cabinet lights

George
Here I really need help. What does the voltage limitation have to do with a small appliance circuit or a Luminaire.

210.6 Branch-Circuit Voltage Limitations.
(B) 120 Volts Between Conductors. Circuits not exceeding 120 volts, nominal, between conductors shall be permitted to supply the following:
(3) Cord-and-plug-connected or permanently connected utilization equipment

We find the requirements for small appliance circuits in 210.52 (B) this is the circuit that I dispute and not any of the others.

I just found the mistake in my 07:14 PM post, good catch.
But 210.6 voltage limitations has nothing to do with the under cabinet light in this thread.

Movie I don?t know.

The light
The light is by 100 definitions the requirement that it is to be on the general purpose circuit is in the exception in 210.52 (B) (1)
The Movie?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Ok i just solved my illegal UC that was plugged into a SA outlet.I installed a receptacle outlet from a GP branch circuit.And being that it serves the UC lights it is not on a gfci as it does not serve the counter top.Placed a large sign "warning this outlet is for plug in lights only,use for a toaster or coffee maker will result in a fine or jail or both "

Mr. Walker, I laughed my fanny off when I read this, and never gave you credit for that. Thank you!

 

[George Stolz]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:
George
Here I really need help. What does the voltage limitation have to do with a small appliance circuit or a Luminaire.

Nothing.

You seem to deny (by your post on page...four or so) that there is a difference between:

(3) Cord-and-plug-connected or permanently connected utilization equipment

If they meant the same thing, it would be pretty stupid to put "Option A" or "Option B" up for grabs if they were the same option, wouldn't it?

If you can bend your mind around this fact, then you will understand why a receptacle can not be a lighting outlet.

There is no lighting outlet. Since there is no lighting outlet, there is no other outlet. There is only the required receptacle.

Seven...minute...abs. You get it? People walk into the video store and see Eight Minute Abs sitting next to Seven Mintute Abs on the shelf, what are they gonna get?

Edit to add:
If you cannot readily identify an "other outlet", why are you so convinced that 210.52(B)(2) is being violated?

[ May 02, 2005, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[davedottcom]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Something About Mary?

Dave

 

[jwelectric]

Re: under-cabinet lights

George
Help me understand these definitions please

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
Notice there is no mention of a box

Receptacle Outlet. An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed.


Receptacle. A receptacle is a contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment plug. A single receptacle is a single contact device with no other contact device on the same yoke. A multiple receptacle is two or more contact devices on the same yoke.
This says that a duplex receptacle is two contact devices

Can you see that a receptacle is a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply a piece of equipment?

Do you agree that a receptacle is an outlet?

[ May 02, 2005, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:
George
Help me understand these definitions please

I'm going to take this at face value, and drop my sarcasm, because I just woke up and don't know any better.

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

This is a general term. As an analogy, this is the same as the word "dog."

Receptacle Outlet. An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed.

This is a more specific term. Keeping our analogy, this is the same as the word "Chiahuahua."

Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.

This is also a more specific term. Keeping our analogy, this is the same as "German Sheperd."

So, while Chihuahuas and German Shepherds are both dogs, there is a distinct difference of what purposes they can serve, and they are visually different. The same goes for outlets. You have receptacles, and you have lighting outlets, and they are both types of outlets. But they cannot physically serve the purposes of the other.

Can you see that a receptacle is a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply a piece of equipment?

Can you see that a receptacle, with a cord plugged into it, does not directly connect the conductors as a lighting outlet does? It's not a permanent connection, it's a cord-and-plug-connection.

Can you see that in our analogy, that a luminaire is a cat? It doesn't supply energy, it consumes it. You can't confuse a dog for a cat. You can't confuse a luminaire with a cord with a lighting outlet. They are cats, and dogs.

So if I install a Chihuahua in the wall, and plug a cat into it, there doesn't have to be a german sheperd present. The act of plugging it in doesn't create a German Sheperd.

That is why you haven't been able to find a German Sheperd to scold for violating 210.52(B)(2). There's no other dogs, just the Chihuahua.

Dave,
Yup. I thought I saw a parallel to the discussion with the hitchhiker.

[ May 02, 2005, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Stepping back and looking at that, I'm either a genius or I've lost all my f***ing marbles.

(I thought that would edit itself!

[ May 02, 2005, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: under-cabinet lights

Can you see that a receptacle, with a cord plugged into it, does not directly connect the conductors as a lighting outlet does? It's not a permanent connection, it's a cord-and-plug-connection

Yes you are again correct it is not a permanent connection and the definition of lighting outlet does not require a permanent connection only a direct connection.
We do directly plug the cord into the receptacle.

I am not to sure what the point is about the cat and dog deal, I am talking about outlets. I will agree that there are several deferent types of outlets with one being a lighting outlet.
Now lets leave the cats and dogs out of this and see where we stand.

Based on the pictures that have been posted I feel that the idea is a lighting outlet requires a box. This is not true. By the definition you posted an outlet is ANY POINT THAT CURRENT IS TAKEN. Where does it state that a box is required? It doesn?t, it only requires a point to take current such as at a duplex receptacle. As I have tried to point out, ALL of the receptacles in the living, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room and others are lighting receptacles. They are installed on the general lighting circuit.

By definitions outlined in article 100 a lighting outlet is any point that I receive current for a luminaire, which is a complete lighting unit. This is true whether it is hard wired or just plugged in. there fore to use the small appliance circuit would violate 210.52 (B) (2).

When I have time this evening I will try to explain the meaning of directly connected fire pump controller and its purpose that you might see that direct connection as used in the definition of lighting outlet has nothing to do with a box or wire nuts.


[ May 02, 2005, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: under-cabinet lights

George
Article 695.4 Direct Connection of a fire pump. As you can see the term direct connection has no bearing on wire nuts and a junction box. It only means plugged straight in as in cord and plug unless you contend that a lighting outlet is to be connect to the line side of the service

[ May 02, 2005, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]