under-cabinet lights

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Re: under-cabinet lights

I'm done.

Where is the outlet? Show me the outlet, I'll believe the violation.

If you point to the luminaire, you're wrong.

If you point to the receptacle, it's not an "other outlet"; it's supposed to be there, you're wrong.

Where is the violating outlet?
 
Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I'm done.

Where is the outlet? Show me the outlet, I'll believe the violation.

If you point to the receptacle, it's not an "other outlet"; it's supposed to be there, you're wrong.

Where is the violating outlet?
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How many outlets does a duplex have? Two

In the living room how many receptacles are lighting outlets? All

In the kitchen how many receptacles are lighting outlets? Those with a light plugged in
 
Re: under-cabinet lights

So the required receptacle is the illegal one?

Okie-dokie. It's been fun. Let me know if you want to know more about the difference between dogs and cats. :)
 
Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by georgestolz:
So the required receptacle is the illegal one?
:)
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George
Praise the Lord! I do believe you are about to get it.
That point that I take current for a complete lighting unit (Luminaire) becomes the lighting outlet. It would the half of that duplex that the blades of that light fixture entered.
 
Re: under-cabinet lights

pierre April 30, 2005 12:29 PM
Plugging a light fixture into the small appliance branch circuit receptacle outlet is not a violation. .52(B)(2) "shall have no other outlets" - does not mean a light fixture that is plugged into the "receptacle outlet"
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By the definitions given in article 100 and the wording of 210.52 (B) (1) and (2) I respectfully disagree. It is clearly stated in the exceptions that we are allowed to install a general lighting circuit for any lighting needed.

iwire April 30, 2005 06:20 PM
I can not agree with his read on this issue, IMO he is off the chart on this one. We all go there occasionally.
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Which part do you not agree with?

jwelectric April 30, 2005 08:04 PM
How many inspectors that are members would while doing a final on a house saw under cabinet lighting with a cord plugged into a counter receptacle would sign off on the final?
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The only reply that this brought was by dana1028 who stated, ?Personally, I would call this out as a violation and issue a correction notice.....the inspector in the next town might call it differently.?

roger May 01, 2005 01:59 PM
The bottom line is; myself, the average home owner, most of the people in this thread, will use a receptacle outlet to supply any utilization equipment that has a male cord cap that will fit, and in my case this might even be a table saw in my kitchen. Am I going to have to worry about the SA police busting in and taking me to the Big House?
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No I think not, but it is a violation of 210.52 (B) (2) to plug a fixed under cabinet light in the small appliance receptacle.

roger May 01, 2005 04:59 PM
JW, I'm from NC too and realize your "Bless Your Heart" statements are belittling those you are addressing, so let me say, you are grasping for straws and are on the verge of being pathetic in your argument here, Bless Your Little Heart.
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To this I responded on May 01, 2005 06:03 PM with The term ?Bless your heart? is a statement of confusion that I can?t under stand why two outstanding members of this forum can?t see what is in front them.
Which part of the articles I have posted is wrong?


iwire May 01, 2005 06:14 PM I notice you have not responded directly to any code sections I have pointed out.
That means either responding to me is beneath you or you just do not have any answers.
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I have responded to the article that you and every one else has posted and found nothing that would lead me to accept the lighting fixture on a small appliance circuit. I sent you a PM and respectfully ask you to explain why you think that the articles I have posted are wrong.
The way I am taking the lack of a response is that if you can?t just bully your unfounded opinion upon me you just leave the discussion.

Again with the utmost of respect I ask for anyone even the bullies to explain to me where that I am misunderstanding article 210.52 (B) and the definition of an outlet in article 100. The only thing that I see that might cause a misunderstanding is the ?direct connection? of the fixture. Looking in 210.50 (A) and (B) I see the term ?permanently connected? which leads me to believe that there is a difference between direct and permanently and the words direct connection could be plugged in. I also understand that the 3 watts per square foot is for the lighting circuits and the receptacles are included in this. Therefore a receptacle can be and is a lighting outlet.
:)
 
Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:
iwire April 30, 2005 06:20 PM
I can not agree with his read on this issue, IMO he is off the chart on this one. We all go there occasionally.
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Which part do you not agree with?
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I do not agree a lighting fixture is an lighting outlet.

I do not agree "permanently connected" has anything to do with an item being mechanically fastened in place.

I still can not see how you can twist this definition so badly

Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.
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How in the world do you figure a complete fixture, ballast, cord, plug, switch lampholders and enclosure is the lighting outlet.

Look at the first two words of the definition An outlet

So we know immediately this is an outlet now look at the NEC definition of outlet.

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
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Thats it, the outlet 'stops' where the utilization equipment 'begins'.

It's that freaking simple!!!!!


Originally posted by jwelectric:
Again with the utmost of respect I ask for anyone even the bullies to explain to me where that I am misunderstanding article 210.52 (B) and the definition of an outlet in article 100.
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As I posted you must read the definition of lighting outlet then read the NEC definition of outlet.

You will see an outlet is a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

The light fixture is the utilization equipment it is not the continuation of the outlet. :p

And so is saying that plugging a lighting fixture into an outlet means we have permanently connected a lighting outlet to the circuit.

You ask us to show you where this is allowed, there is no section that says we can. That is because there is nothing that says we can't.

I don't know how this could be clearer and I grow tied of discussing it with you.

All the lurkers here have that have followed this thread will have made up their minds one way or the other long ago and it is clear that you and I are not going to agree on this.

Bob

[ May 03, 2005, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: under-cabinet lights

"How many outlets does a duplex have? Two

In the living room how many receptacles are lighting outlets? All

In the kitchen how many receptacles are lighting outlets? Those with a light plugged in "

I have been following this thread and I have to say I disagree with your interpretation, JW. Your logic in code interpretation seems to be flawed as demonstrated by your above quote. None of the livingroom receptacle outlets are lighting outlets by NEC definition. Look up the definition of "Lighting Outlet" in the NEC. "Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminare(lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder." No mention is made of a cord cap connection of a luminare.
210.23(A) Exception:"The small appliance branch circuits, laundry branch circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C)(1), (2), and (3)shall supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section."
This clearly states that all of these specified branch circuits must end with a receptacle outlet device and cannot terminate in a matter as defined in the term "Lighting Outlet" listed in Article 100. Plugging the cord cap of a lamp into a receptacle outlet doesn't make the receptacle outlet a lighting outlet by any stretch of the imagination. IN MY OPINION.
 
Re: under-cabinet lights

Allow me to spin this topic a little more following JW's logic. If I take my blender(a small appliance) out on the deck to make margeritas and plug it into the outdoor receptacle outlet does this make my outdoor receptacle circuit a small appliance branch circuit and put me in violation? I don't think so.
 
Re: under-cabinet lights

Iwire
As I posted you must read the definition of lighting outlet then read the NEC definition of outlet.

You will see an outlet is a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
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I agree

The light fixture is the utilization equipment it is not the continuation of the outlet.
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I agree

If I plug other types of utilization equipment, lets say a vacuum cleaner into an outlet does the vacuum cleaner become an outlet?

Of course not, that is absurd.
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Again I agree

And so is saying that plugging a lighting fixture into an outlet means we have permanently connected a lighting outlet to the circuit.
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No we haven?t permanently connected a lighting outlet to the circuit.

What I contend is that we have plugged a Luminaire (defined as a complete lighting unit) into a small appliance circuit receptacle OUTLET, thus showing the intent of using this receptacle outlet for the use of light thus violating 210.52 (B) (2)
Why is the purpose of the exception to .52 (B) (1)?
 
Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:
What I contend is that we have plugged a Luminaire (defined as a complete lighting unit) into a small appliance circuit receptacle OUTLET, thus showing the intent of using this receptacle outlet for the use of light thus violating 210.52 (B) (2)
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I just can not buy that argument.

The person that installed the outlet intended it to be a SA circuit, plugging a light into it does not change what the outlet was intended for.

Really an SA receptacle is intended to power any device with the correct plug.

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Why is the purpose of the exception to .52 (B) (1)?
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Which one of the two?
 
Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by amptech:
Allow me to spin this topic a little more following JW's logic. If I take my blender(a small appliance) out on the deck to make margeritas and plug it into the outdoor receptacle outlet does this make my outdoor receptacle circuit a small appliance branch circuit and put me in violation? I don't think so.
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No I am not saying any such a thing I am only saying that the receptacle is an outlet.
The one you just plugged the mixer in is part of the (Table 220.12 General Lighting Loads by Occupancy)used in sizing the service

To think that the receptacle OUTLETS through out the house were not INTENDED to plug a lamp in would be contrary to the very name of the circuit. why does a small appliance circit have that name?
 
Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:
why does a small appliance circit have that name?
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A light fixture like the one under discussion, a fluorescent strip fixture with cord, plug and switch can be considered an appliance.

Appliance. Utilization equipment, generally other than industrial, that is normally built in standardized sizes or types and is installed or connected as a unit to perform one or more functions such as clothes washing, air conditioning, food mixing, deep frying, and so forth.
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"Such as" and "so forth" are open ended.

I do not see microwaving, does that mean a microwave oven is not an appliance?

You mentioned you have some Nextel chargers plugged into you SA circuit.

I do not see 'charging' in the definition of appliance does that mean those chargers are not a type of appliance?

How about a clock radio plugged into the SA circuit?

I do not see telling time or listening to music in the NEC appliance definition.

Bob
 
Re: under-cabinet lights

Iwire,

The definition says, An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture)
The very second that the blades touches the duplex the intent is there to use this receptacle as a lighting outlet. Not allowed per .52 (B) (2)

This exception to 52 (B) (1) Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.

This exception affords the relief to install the under cabinet lights and not interfere with the small appliance circuit
 
Re: under-cabinet lights

Iwire,

I do see
Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.

Luminaire. A complete lighting unit consisting of a lamp or lamps together with the parts designed to distribute the light, to position and protect the lamps and ballast (where applicable), and to connect the lamps to the power supply.

Branch Circuit, General-Purpose. A branch circuit that supplies two or more receptacles or outlets for lighting and appliances.

It is obvious by the very wording in 210.52 (B) (1) and (2) that lights were not be used on the small appliance circuit
 
Re: under-cabinet lights

Good job Bob I have enjoyed this evening.

The bottom line is would you install under cabinet lights and plug them in the small appliance receptacle and call for an inspection?

There is no doubt in my mind what goes on in a home after we live in them a while but does that make any of it code compliant?

210.52 (B) in my and many other opinions does not allow this installation. This being done by an electrician that we hope is getting an inspection.
 
Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:
210.52 (B) in my and many other opinions does not allow this installation. This being done by an electrician that we hope is getting an inspection.
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Out of this entire thread only one person has agreed with you.

As strongly as you believe you are correct is how strongly I feel I am correct.

Who is really correct?

Who cares? :D
 
Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by iwire:
Who cares? :D
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Exactly! Talk about a non issue. I can't believe this has gone so far. Or can I?
I have no doubt that this group can find some way to twist this around so bad that there would be no answer that we could all agree on.
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[ May 03, 2005, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
 
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