Ungrounded AFCI?

[pierre]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

Posted by Bob

"George the line must be drawn."

I think that at some point (for a lot of different issues in the NEC) a line has to be drawn somewhere, and for this item, this is where the line was/is drawn.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

I slept in, so here's a rundown:

The guy opens the panel, sees a bonded panel with two #6's running out of it. He looks outside and sees a ground rod with a #6 attached to it.

He walks into the one unfinished room in the basement, and sees the water pipe coming up through the floor, which dives into the ceiling of the finished room to the left of his room. He is unaware that before the basement was finished, a repair was made midway through the finished ceiling, with PVC. (Do you see the short chunk of PVC midway through the water pipe?)

He sees two #6's, and no other grounding conductors, so he knows the water pipe is connected to the panel. He must follow current code and bond to something, which is (as he thanks his lucky stars) a grounding electrode exposed in the same room.

He completes the installation to current code.

Two years later, a defective appliance burns up and shorts to it's exposed metallic casing. Suddenly, half the plumbing in the house is energized (the half before the PVC splice), etc, etc.

If it had been unbonded, then the only thing energized is a screw on the face of the receptacle cover, and the appliance plugged in. Which is safer?

 

[wirenut1980]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

To davedotcom - I am intrigued by your conspiracy theories and wish to subscribe to your magazine.

Sincerely, Shady UL thug in trenchcoat and dark sunglasses

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

George
You make a good point in your June 20, 2005 08:00 AM post.

I would like to relate this to the electrician who goes to fix a blown fuse. He replaces the fuse writes a bill and leaves. Did he do his job? I don?t think so. He should have found the reason WHY the fuse blew.

When replacing the receptacle it is the responsibility of the electrician to see that the equipment grounding conductor that he is installing is a complete path back to the grounded (neutral) conductor at the main.

An electrician who goes out and installs a receptacle on a two wire system and hits a water line and leaves is the same man who would replace the fuse and leave. This is due to the background training of the person doing the work.

In 250.130 we are given five places that we can connect the equipment grounding conductor. A water pipe is NOT mentioned. In all five listings they use the same words which states that the equipment grounding conductor must land on the grounding electrode conductor or the grounded (neutral) conductor or terminal.

In 406.3 the replacement of a receptacle on a two wire system, the equipment grounding conductor is referred to 250.130. The use of the water line as shown in pictures is only allowed if the water line is a complete path back to the main bonding in the main. It is the responsibility of the electrician to see that the water pipe is a complete path.

 

[iwire]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

George I think I have had an epiphany.

Just where are you connecting the this conductor from the new receptacle to the water pipe?

You are not thinking of connecting to the water pipe further than 5' from the point of entrance are you?

Shame on you!

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

Originally posted by wirenut1980:
To davedotcom - I am intrigued by your conspiracy theories and wish to subscribe to your magazine.

Sincerely, Shady UL thug in trenchcoat and dark sunglasses

Ok, but we can't talk here... I have reason to believe my lines are "tapped"... I'll call you from a pay phone.

Over.



Dave

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

Originally posted by iwire:
You are not thinking of connecting to the water pipe further than 5' from the point of entrance are you?

No.

The "blue" portion of the picture is underground, and my connection is within 5'. In 1960, the rule was not in 5'. That is the problem.

Reposting to get it on this page.

JW wrote:
In 250.130 we are given five places that we can connect the equipment grounding conductor. A water pipe is NOT mentioned. In all five listings they use the same words which states that the equipment grounding conductor must land on the grounding electrode conductor or the grounded (neutral) conductor or terminal.

What?

250.130(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure

What is the grounding electrode system in this house, Mike? It's that stinkin' water pipe in that room! A sparky swings in, throws an EGC at that pipe, and he had complied with 250.130! 250.50 as well!

Where in 250.130 does it state that the GES has to be brought to current code? It doesn't, so he won't.

 

[iwire]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

I am begging you George please label what each item is in your picture.

You may find it clear but I do not.

I still have no idea what your issue is here.

I also agree with Mike (JW) 100% that as an electrician it is your duty to verify that the conductor you have chosen to use as a grounding means is in fact properly grounded.

Are you telling me that once you energize the circuit you would not test the 'hot' slot to the 'ground' hole on the receptacle?

 

[iwire]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

Originally posted by georgestolz:
What is the grounding electrode system in this house, Mike? It's that stinkin' water pipe in that room! A sparky swings in, throws an EGC at that pipe, and he had complied with 250.130! 250.50 as well!

Are you telling us in your area that in older houses it was common to attach the service grounding electrode anywhere on the water pipe?

I have never seen a GEC for a dwelling unit service connected anywhere but withing 5' of the point of entrance no matter what age the house is.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

George

250.130 (C) (1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50

250.52 (A) (1) Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system

As Bob and myself has tried to point out, to use the water line as the equipment grounding conductor you MUST be with-in the first five feet.

250.130 states any point on the grounding ELECTRODE and 250.52 states that the ONLY part of the water line that is the electrode is the FIRST FIVE FEET not the whole thing.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

Originally posted by iwire:
I am begging you George please label what each item is in your picture.

You may find it clear but I do not.

Okay. Since "which part are you not clear on" is a pretty absurd question, I won't ask it.
:roll:

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

Originally posted by iwire:
I have never seen a GEC for a dwelling unit service connected anywhere but withing 5' of the point of entrance no matter what age the house is.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

The 5' rule is fairly new. 90 or 93 I think. I also believe that it was a two stage change. The first change was to require the GEC connection within 5' of the water pipe's point of entrance to the building, and the following code cycle the EGC for the replcement of a two wire receptacle was changed. Note, I don't have my old code books here and this is from memory and I could be wrong.
Don

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

George you drawing is noncompliant to start with.

250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.

This was true in 1975 as stated in 250-80 of that cycle and in 250-81 we were told that a metal underground water pipe SHALL be used as the grounding electrode. 250-112 is quoted below as to how we were to connect to this water pipe.

1975 cycle page 102 article 250 section 112
To Grounding Electrode. The grounding connection of a grounding conductor to a grounding electrode shall be made at a point and in a manner that will assure a permanent and effective ground. Where necessary to assure this for a metal piping system used as a grounding electrode, effective bonding shall be provided around insulated joints and sections and around any equipment that is likely to be disconnected for repairs or replacement.

The 1975 cycle is as far back as I have at this time but I am always looking for older issues of the NEC.

When I got into the electrical trade a year or ten before this cycle we used the water pipe and attached as close to the entry point as possible on all jobs we done.

Sparky should make sure that the water pipe is bonded to the grounded (neutral) at the service before leaving this job. It will be his insurance ( or him ) that will be liable for damages due to this installation.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

Originally posted by jwelectric:
George you drawing is noncompliant to start with.

250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.

This was true in 1975 as stated in 250-80 of that cycle and in 250-81 we were told that a metal underground water pipe SHALL be used as the grounding electrode.

The grounding electrodes in my diagram are bonded together in the MDP Panel. In 1960, it was installed to code, if not beyond code.

250-112 is quoted below as to how we were to connect to this water pipe.

1975 cycle page 102 article 250 section 112
To Grounding Electrode. The grounding connection of a grounding conductor to a grounding electrode shall be made at a point and in a manner that will assure a permanent and effective ground. Where necessary to assure this for a metal piping system used as a grounding electrode, effective bonding shall be provided around insulated joints and sections and around any equipment that is likely to be disconnected for repairs or replacement.

The 1975 cycle is as far back as I have at this time but I am always looking for older issues of the NEC.

And in 1960, there were no insulating joints or sections. In 1982 a pipe in the basement burst because the occupants went on an extended vacation and forgot to turn the furnace on. The pipe burst and was repaired with PVC by a plumber with no electrician staring over his shoulder in 1982.

The basement was finished in 1985, and no notice was given to another piece of pipe in an old house.

When I got into the electrical trade a year or ten before this cycle we used the water pipe and attached as close to the entry point as possible on all jobs we done.

That's great. I do things beyond code all the time, but I don't expect to see it in old work.

Sparky should make sure that the water pipe is bonded to the grounded (neutral) at the service before leaving this job.

Why? He attached it to a 2005-defined grounding electrode, which is all that 250.130 (and 250.50) require him to do.

Do 75% of electricians even know the difference between grounding and bonding?

Great, some of us here are smart enough to know better. But a lot of us aren't. We follow the code. If the code is incomplete, how are we to be held liable?

In (an unrelated) basement I was in recently, and DIY'er had connected the grounding screw of a receptacle to a water pipe with a chunk of THHN. If it weren't for the 5' rule today, it would be legal (aside from the obligatory electrical tape water clamp ). Fifteen years ago it would have been legal.

Why connect it to a grounding electrode? It's completely misleading. It further muddies the already murky concepts of grounding versus bonding.

 

[iwire]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

Originally posted by georgestolz:

Sparky should make sure that the water pipe is bonded to the grounded (neutral) at the service before leaving this job.

Why? He attached it to a 2005-defined grounding electrode, which is all that 250.130 (and 250.50) require him to do.

:roll:

George that is really lame.

We are required to ensure a ground fault path in any installation.

250.4 General Requirements for Grounding and Bonding.

The following general requirements identify what grounding and bonding of electrical systems are required to accomplish. The prescriptive methods contained in Article 250 shall be followed to comply with the performance requirements of this section.

(3) Bonding of Electrical Equipment. Non?current-carrying conductive materials enclosing electrical conductors or equipment, or forming part of such equipment, shall be connected together and to the electrical supply source in a manner that establishes an effective ground-fault current path.

It is our job to verify the integrity of the grounding means.

[ June 21, 2005, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

How? What's the best, most accurate, most effective way?

[ June 21, 2005, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

Take a resistance reading between the equipment grounding conductor and the grounded (neutral) conductor. If it is low things are good, if it is high then do something different.

Why? He attached it to a 2005-defined grounding electrode, which is all that 250.130 (and 250.50) require him to do.

No he didn?t, he connected to the water pipe. The electrode is that part of the water pipe that is in contact with earth, or as outlined, the first five feet.

The basement was finished in 1985, and no notice was given to another piece of pipe in an old house.

The electrician who did the wiring at this point should have noticed the PVC as well as the electrode connections.

The bottom line is if it ain?t right, it ain?t right. As professionals we should all have the knowledge to do it right.

Now let's get over there and strighten this mess out!


[ June 21, 2005, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Take a resistance reading between the equipment grounding conductor and the grounded (neutral) conductor. If it is low things are good, if it is high then do something different.

Just a sec, I need to get the 200' test leads for my meter out of the truck...

The basement was finished in 1985, and no notice was given to another piece of pipe in an old house.

The electrician who did the wiring at this point should have noticed the PVC as well as the electrode connections.

Why? He didn't even have to get into the panel: There were three spare circuits pulled to the basement in 1960. In 1985 no changes were made to the panel or GES.

Do you always verify the integrity of the GES of any house you enter on a service call?

The bottom line is if it ain't right, it ain't right. As professionals we should all have the knowledge to do it right.

That would be nice. I believe this section hampers the understanding of grounding and bonding. We aren't all experts, right out of the gate. I daresay I attained my license with a dangerously uninformed understanding of the roles these different components of the system have. Knowing how to answer the questions correctly doesn't always mean that the tested understand something. Tests determine the ability to find answers, not necessarily interpret them.

The term "Equipment Grounding Conductor" contributes to this.

I've heard of people driving ground rods to "ground" receptacles.

My whole tangent started because I was unaware that special rules existed for this scenario. I still find it ridiculous and less safe to attempt to cobble together a "grounding" conductor for one new receptacle, instead of allowing a 2-wire or GFI to be installed instead.

Now let's get over there and strighten this mess out!

[ June 22, 2005, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Ungrounded AFCI?

Just a sec, I need to get the 200' test leads for my meter out of the truck...

No just take the reading right there at the receptacle. If the water pipe is connected to the grounded (neutral) conductor you will have a low reading. If it is not then the reading at the receptacle will be high.

Do you always verify the integrity of the GES of any house you enter on a service call?

Yes. I am the last person to work at this house so I am ultimately the one the insurance will be looking for should something happen. Above this, I take pride in my work and my trade.

In the picture I've drawn, how would you cope with this problem? Beat holes the length of the house, testing the water pipes until you found the break?

No sir. I would run a conductor from the water pipe around the outside of the house to the ground rod and bond the two as it should have been done. And yes I would charge for my time and material.