Ungrounded AFCI?
- Thread starter jeff43222
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- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Ungrounded AFCI?
Part VII lays out the "method" of "grounding" equipment (which we know to be "bonding", despite it's misnomer). Immediately a general statement is made, as to where EGC's are to ultimately terminate, for ungrounded and grounded systems.
The last part of the general 250.130 (before the (A) states:
Then, to be tidy and helpful, the FPN steers you to 406.3, which states:
Then, twice, once in (b) and once in (c), this statement is made:
[ June 24, 2005, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
Edit: I don't believe that's completely accurate.
Part VII lays out the "method" of "grounding" equipment (which we know to be "bonding", despite it's misnomer). Immediately a general statement is made, as to where EGC's are to ultimately terminate, for ungrounded and grounded systems.
The last part of the general 250.130 (before the (A) states:
(C) repeats this:
As JW pointed out, this is permissive language. If you had to use one of the items in the list, then it would state "shall be connected to one of the following."
Then, to be tidy and helpful, the FPN steers you to 406.3, which states:
At this stage, all receptacles are to be grounded. How are we to do this? Recipe:
Uh-oh. We're in trouble. The branch circuit we are going to use to replace receptacles, or add a new receptacle with, has no EGC. We're screwed. Oh, wait:
So, at this stage, before any other remedies are presented, we get an FPN suggestion to peek back at 250.130.
We are dealing with a circuit bearing non-grounding type receptacles. No EGC was originally installed with the BC conductors.
Then, twice, once in (b) and once in (c), this statement is made:
Why would an original circuit with no EGC suddenly grow one between receptacles? Because someone extended the circuit with new methods that brought an "EGC" with them. This is dangerous; isolating each non-grounding GFI-protected receptacle is safer than exposing the entire new addition to current that cannot be faulted, so it's required to be isolated.
[ June 24, 2005, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Ungrounded AFCI?
George here is some more ammunition to use for your debate.
394.10 Uses Permitted.
Concealed knob-and-tube wiring shall be permitted to be installed in the hollow spaces of walls and ceilings or in unfinished attics and roof spaces as provided by 394.23 only as follows:
(1) For extensions of existing installations
(2) Elsewhere by special permission
250.86 Other Conductor Enclosures and Raceways.
Except as permitted by 250.112(I), metal enclosures and raceways for other than service conductors shall be grounded.
Exception No. 1: Metal enclosures and raceways for conductors added to existing installations of open wire, knob and tube wiring, and nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall not be required to be grounded where these enclosures or wiring methods comply with (1) through (4) as follows:
(1) Do not provide an equipment ground
You go George
George here is some more ammunition to use for your debate.
394.10 Uses Permitted.
Concealed knob-and-tube wiring shall be permitted to be installed in the hollow spaces of walls and ceilings or in unfinished attics and roof spaces as provided by 394.23 only as follows:
(1) For extensions of existing installations
(2) Elsewhere by special permission
250.86 Other Conductor Enclosures and Raceways.
Except as permitted by 250.112(I), metal enclosures and raceways for other than service conductors shall be grounded.
Exception No. 1: Metal enclosures and raceways for conductors added to existing installations of open wire, knob and tube wiring, and nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall not be required to be grounded where these enclosures or wiring methods comply with (1) through (4) as follows:
(1) Do not provide an equipment ground
You go George
physis
Senior Member
Re: Ungrounded AFCI?
I haven't been following this thread. And I just looked up this "no connecting the ground between outlets" anomaly in 406.3(D)(3)(b) & (c).
This is very strange. If I didn't know better I would think that the code writers knew that this methodology prescribed for "non-grounding branch circuits" could result in an unsafe condition.
There's only one reason I can think of to avoid the interconection of the EGC's between outlets. And that's to keep uncleared fault current from appearing in more places that it needs to. Accept that it wouldn't make much difference if two outlets have an EGC to the same electrode.
Wierd.
I haven't been following this thread. And I just looked up this "no connecting the ground between outlets" anomaly in 406.3(D)(3)(b) & (c).
This is very strange. If I didn't know better I would think that the code writers knew that this methodology prescribed for "non-grounding branch circuits" could result in an unsafe condition.
There's only one reason I can think of to avoid the interconection of the EGC's between outlets. And that's to keep uncleared fault current from appearing in more places that it needs to. Accept that it wouldn't make much difference if two outlets have an EGC to the same electrode.
Wierd.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Ungrounded AFCI?
The recipes in (b) and (c) are to be used in the event that nothing is done to provide grounding. As soon as you bring an EGC as prescribed in 250.130(C), then you lose the options presented in 406.3.
But you wouldn't need the options anyway, provided you've verified that the electrode used is properly bonded.
I don't think it's too weird. I do think the omission of any text at all relating to extensions of branch circuits is a little odd. I think if they had followed through, and laid out in so many words what to do when extending an old circuit, this discussion would have been over a long time ago.
The recipes in (b) and (c) are to be used in the event that nothing is done to provide grounding. As soon as you bring an EGC as prescribed in 250.130(C), then you lose the options presented in 406.3.
But you wouldn't need the options anyway, provided you've verified that the electrode used is properly bonded.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Ungrounded AFCI?
Okay, so I've come to the realization that current code does not allow 2-wire receptacles to be installed in any new receptacle outlet.
I've done some digging, in the scrolls, which I will come back and edit it in, for more perspective on this:
</font>
Now, in a strictly hypothetical sense, let me put this forward, with the clear understanding that this installation is in violation of several sections of the NEC:
If I were to connect the neutral conductor to the grounding conductor, in the receptacle outlet marked "New #1" in this shoddy diagram, would there be a hazard to personnel?
[ July 04, 2005, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
Okay, so I've come to the realization that current code does not allow 2-wire receptacles to be installed in any new receptacle outlet.
I've done some digging, in the scrolls, which I will come back and edit it in, for more perspective on this:
</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Charlie B's explanation of grounding from July of 2003</font>
Now, in a strictly hypothetical sense, let me put this forward, with the clear understanding that this installation is in violation of several sections of the NEC:
If I were to connect the neutral conductor to the grounding conductor, in the receptacle outlet marked "New #1" in this shoddy diagram, would there be a hazard to personnel?
[ July 04, 2005, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Ungrounded AFCI?
You can lineside almost any receptacle,as long as isn`ot ,kitchen,bath.size of a eve receptacle circuit must be considered
H./O/`R wants 10 eve receptacles with a swithch.Do you wire on recuired gfci,or do you add s 2nd wiith gfci in gargagE WELL
You can lineside almost any receptacle,as long as isn`ot ,kitchen,bath.size of a eve receptacle circuit must be considered
H./O/`R wants 10 eve receptacles with a swithch.Do you wire on recuired gfci,or do you add s 2nd wiith gfci in gargagE WELL
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Ungrounded AFCI?
Sam,
Exactly.
Where is the hazard?
Is "New #1" going to be struck by lightning?
Just playing devil's advocate here. Where is the hazard?
Sam,
Exactly.
Where is the hazard?
Is "New #1" going to be struck by lightning?
Just playing devil's advocate here. Where is the hazard?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Ungrounded AFCI?
If the neutral opens on the old circuit all the items 'grounded' in the new circuit will have hot enclosures.
No one will like touching the shiny new appliance.
[ July 06, 2005, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
There is a real hazard in what you describe.Originally posted by georgestolz:
Where is the hazard?
If the neutral opens on the old circuit all the items 'grounded' in the new circuit will have hot enclosures.
No one will like touching the shiny new appliance.
[ July 06, 2005, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Ungrounded AFCI?
Nuts.
Nuts.
physis
Senior Member
Re: Ungrounded AFCI?
That's what I thought too.
Edit: If there isn't an existing electrode system it appears that code allows it pretty much like I said. Unless I missed something when I looked at this before.
Read my first post on the page before this one. Do I have it wrong?
Edit again: And I'm not saying I like it either. Cause I don't and I wouldn't do it.
Edit again: Actually the way you worded is exactly correct. To the grounding electrode system. It's just that you're given permission to have an electrode system that isn't connected to the service.
I guess it might look like semantics or something, but that's how I'm reading it.
[ July 06, 2005, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: physis ]
That's what I thought too.
Edit: If there isn't an existing electrode system it appears that code allows it pretty much like I said. Unless I missed something when I looked at this before.
Read my first post on the page before this one. Do I have it wrong?
Edit again: And I'm not saying I like it either. Cause I don't and I wouldn't do it.
Edit again: Actually the way you worded is exactly correct. To the grounding electrode system. It's just that you're given permission to have an electrode system that isn't connected to the service.
I guess it might look like semantics or something, but that's how I'm reading it.
[ July 06, 2005, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: physis ]
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Ungrounded AFCI?
Sam
I know that I am going to hear a bunch of lip because of this post from the other members in here but here is an insert from the 20002 handbook.
Section 250.130(C) applies to both ungrounded and grounded systems. It permits a nongrounding-type receptacle to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle under the following conditions.
(1) The branch circuit does not contain an equipment ground.
(2) An existing branch circuit is being extended for additional receptacle outlets.
(3) An equipment grounding conductor is connected between the receptacle grounding terminal and any accessible point on the grounding electrode system.
Because of the requirements of 250.52(A)(1), an interior metal water pipe more than 5 ft from the point of entrance of the water pipe into the building is no longer allowed to serve as a connection to the grounding electrode conductor.
Exhibit 250.49 shows a branch-circuit extension made from an existing installation. This method is also permitted to ground a replacement 3-wire receptacle in the existing ungrounded box on the left, where no grounding conductor is available.
Sam
I know that I am going to hear a bunch of lip because of this post from the other members in here but here is an insert from the 20002 handbook.
Section 250.130(C) applies to both ungrounded and grounded systems. It permits a nongrounding-type receptacle to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle under the following conditions.
(1) The branch circuit does not contain an equipment ground.
(2) An existing branch circuit is being extended for additional receptacle outlets.
(3) An equipment grounding conductor is connected between the receptacle grounding terminal and any accessible point on the grounding electrode system.
Because of the requirements of 250.52(A)(1), an interior metal water pipe more than 5 ft from the point of entrance of the water pipe into the building is no longer allowed to serve as a connection to the grounding electrode conductor.
Exhibit 250.49 shows a branch-circuit extension made from an existing installation. This method is also permitted to ground a replacement 3-wire receptacle in the existing ungrounded box on the left, where no grounding conductor is available.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Ungrounded AFCI?
but I have no idea what the point of that post was.
Mike I would be more then happy to give you some 'lip'
but I have no idea what the point of that post was.
physis
Senior Member
Re: Ungrounded AFCI?
I'll just say it again so that we don't loose sight of the question.
In an existing building that has no grounding system, does 250.130(C) allow a new receptacle to be installed with an EGC that goes to a newly installed grounding electrode system that has no connection to the service neutral?
Cause I think that's what's allowed by code and I think it's a really bad idea and I hope I'm wrong and someone can convice me that I'm missing something.
Edit: The code needs the (C)
[ July 06, 2005, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
I'll just say it again so that we don't loose sight of the question.
In an existing building that has no grounding system, does 250.130(C) allow a new receptacle to be installed with an EGC that goes to a newly installed grounding electrode system that has no connection to the service neutral?
Cause I think that's what's allowed by code and I think it's a really bad idea and I hope I'm wrong and someone can convice me that I'm missing something.
Edit: The code needs the (C)
[ July 06, 2005, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Ungrounded AFCI?
The equipment grounding conductor must directly of indirectly through the grounding electrode system connect to the grounded (neutral) at the main.
Edited to add
Other wise it would be useless
Bob
I couldn?t stand it no longer I had to say something so I copied the 2002 handbook.
I am addicted to posting in this forum.
Hello my name is Mike??. I am a post-a-holic
[ July 06, 2005, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
To answer you question NO.
The equipment grounding conductor must directly of indirectly through the grounding electrode system connect to the grounded (neutral) at the main.
Edited to add
Other wise it would be useless
Bob
I couldn?t stand it no longer I had to say something so I copied the 2002 handbook.
I am addicted to posting in this forum.
Hello my name is Mike??. I am a post-a-holic
[ July 06, 2005, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
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