Upcoming mandatory stoppage of all natural gas appliances in houses.

Ground sourced heat pumps (and A/C) is being installed in some instances but I suspect the cost is realistic for only the more expensive homes. Then of course, if that became popular there will be environmentalists who will be saying that it will be warming the earth from within...

Solar will help with the A/C but do little for heat. Nobody want's to heat with electric.

-Hal
I disagree. I think heating with electric is now a great option for new houses in concert with a grid tie solar system. That's what I do. I heat with electric resistive and I still had 4500KWH surplus this year obviously more of a challenge for big old houses though.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I disagree. I think heating with electric is now a great option for new houses in concert with a grid tie solar system. That's what I do. I heat with electric resistive and I still had 4500KWH surplus this year obviously more of a challenge for big old houses though.
Yet every installation like that works to increase the likelihood that the utility won't be able to supply those loads when the sun is not producing power.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
That doesn't make much sense. Most of my energy production is in summer and I don't heat in the summer. Besides I'm pretty sure the grid operators have it figured out.
The generators sell less power so they can't afford to have units just sitting there not making any money, so they retire them, and then when power is needed there is no generation available. Just simple economics on the part of the companies that own the power plants, which in most cases are no longer regulated pubic utilities.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Just simple economics on the part of the companies that own the power plants
Not sure how various states/grid operators are handling this issue, but the obvious market based solution is to create a market for "ready reserve" where dispatchable power plants can get paid to be on standby, whether or not they are called on to produce. If I recall, an oversight in the Texas market design that become very apparent in February of this year.

Cheers, Wayne
 
The generators sell less power so they can't afford to have units just sitting there not making any money, so they retire them, and then when power is needed there is no generation available. Just simple economics on the part of the companies that own the power plants, which in most cases are no longer regulated pubic utilities.
I dont think I can buy that. It is just too much of an oversimplification. There always needs to be peaker plants that are not used often, for record high temperatures, maintenance and shutdowns, etc. There apparently is a market for such things. IF renewables are making some power producers go out of business, that is just the market working. I dont see how that changes peaker operations much. The few problems that have happened, the issue was more with the ISO and record temperatures than the renewables.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Oh yea, then in the winter you will transfer heat from the earth to the house. :)

If you think about soil mass as thermal storage, then this makes perfect sense. In the summer store excess heat in the soil, in the winter use it.

Sounds like harvesting ice from lakes in the winter, keeping it in insulated warehouses, and selling it in the summer.

But you do need lots of tons of soil to store a seasons worth of heating....

Jon
 

oldsparky52

Senior Member
But you do need lots of tons of soil to store a seasons worth of heating....
Here along the coast, water table is high enough that you really have a great HVAC system. I wonder what would happen if almost everyone had one of these systems. Would the temperature change to any significance? (the groundwater )
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Engineer
... why is it a bad thing? It's just heat transfer, right? Earth will give it up later.
Oh yea, then in the winter you will transfer heat from the earth to the house. :)
In the South, more heat will be pumped into the Earth during the summer than is extracted during the winter, causing a local temperature increase. In the North, the opposite.
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Engineer
Let's just build nuclear power plants if we want to go all electric. That would be my first choice.
Oh, gawd! Nuclear's a twofer: both a poor net energy return and an astronomical cost.
During the Manhattan project, something like 15-20% of the nation's entire electricity consumption was used for preparing nuclear fuel.
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Engineer
Not sure how various states/grid operators are handling this issue, but the obvious market based solution is to create a market for "ready reserve" where dispatchable power plants can get paid to be on standby, whether or not they are called on to produce. If I recall, an oversight in the Texas market design that become very apparent in February of this year.

Cheers, Wayne
One of the things a lot of people overlook is interruptible consumption.
When the Internet of Things is deployed, grid operators can tell power consumers that power is at a premium and low-priority consumption can be postponed, lessening the amount of spinning reserve required. It'll have a huge impact when a significant fraction of the total consumption is battery charging, which can be interrupted within ¹/₆₀ of a second after receiving the message.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Seems NY can't get the supply of NG they need to keep up with the demand (read politics) so the POCOs placed a moratorium on new installations and expansion of the NG systems. There was supposed to be a new supply line built from (I think Canada) that would have to cross the Hudson River at some point that made the environmentalists have a fit. So no pipeline. The lack of adequate NG is actually restricting new construction. I see some residential construction having to use use propane or oil. Hopefully when nothing gets built the politicians will have to change their tune.

-Hal
The kicker is the ex-gov put the arm on the gas company to force them to allow the hookups. First deep freeze, everyone is going to be mighty chilly.

 
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