Upcoming mandatory stoppage of all natural gas appliances in houses.

I have, look up ESG score ,and think about how getting loan will work for your business with the green deal.
The way to hell is paved with good intentions.
Basically it was just meant to be a conversation starter on working toward a more renewable and sustainable energy infrastructure and keeping those jobs in the US rather than giving them away to places like China. Being that it was very general, had no policy, and was non binding, I don't really see how anybody could say much about it one way or the other about it being bad or good. I don't see how getting a loan has really anything to do with it either.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
*You didn't think the payouts for all the wildffire lawsuits was going to come out of their pockets, did you?
It is not like the state is not complicit in this whole affair. The state is the one that decides how much money utilities are allowed to spend for maintenance. If the state does not put enough money in the budget to keep rates down, it is just a matter of time until things start to go south. The state is also the ones who stopped logging and other activities that greatly reduce wildfires.
 
I have, look up ESG score ,and think about how getting loan will work for your business with the green deal.
The way to hell is paved with good intentions.
When your loan score is based on your carbon footprint it’s relevant.
I believe a lot of business get loans for startup or expanding.
You seem to be exactly making my point in post #54. Again, the GND has no policy in it, and says nothing about a carbon or polluter tax. In fact the words "tax" and "loan" do not even appear in it. The word "carbon" appears only once, in the following sentence:

"removing greenhouse gases from the atmosphere and reducing pollution by restoring natural ecosystems through proven low-tech solutions that increase soil carbon storage, such as land preservation and afforestation"
 

AC\DC

Senior Member
Location
Florence,Oregon,Lane
Occupation
EC
of course it has no policy it’s a proposal. It’s the foundation if adopted., Policy will come after.
from Green new deal

G) working collaboratively with farmers and ranchers in the United States to remove pollution and greenhouse gas emissions from the agricultural sector as much as is techno- logically feasible, including
i) by supporting family farming;
(ii) by investing in sustainable farm- ing and land use practices that increase soil health; and
iii) by building a more sustainable
food system that ensures universal access to healthy food;
Mentioned green house gas emission
http://factmyth.com/factoids/cows-are-one-of-the-top-emitters-of-green-house-gasses/
it’s vague language, you have to look who wrote it , the people that don’t want you flying, eating meat, etc.
if you think they will have a proposal that states Meat will be 50% more (hypothetically) you trust politicians to much.
they leave it vague because if they told the truth they would lose support.
ESG, green new deal, carbon tax or human engineer all work together.
don’t Believe me here you go
and video of the guy
talking about genetically engineer humans to dislike meat and making humans smaller to Produce less green house gasses. There is that key word again. Green house gages.
 

garbo

Senior Member
I love how this story got so overblown and misquoted all around the country.

All that REALLY happened is that San Francisco and other municipalities have implemented a local Building Code rule saying that all new residential construction be required to have CIRCUIT CAPACITY for all electric appliances. There is no requirement to eliminate natural gas appliances nor is there a requirement to prevent the installation of the infrastructure for it (i.e. gas lines), which is what the extremists wanted. It just means you can't build a house with a 60A or 100A service any more. The stated CONCEPT behind this is to slowly move people away from natural gas because of the carbon footprint it entails, there is no "upcoming mandatory stoppage of all natural gas appliances in houses". But hyperbole reigns supreme in this country right now, so everyone with an agenda, one way or the other, is jumping all over this and exaggerating the concepts as if they are reality.

Personally, as the owner f a hose with mostly gas appliances, I welcome the change because when I go to cash in on my house in a few years, I will make bank having gas appliances. Right now, PG&E is charging 50 cents/kWh for peak usage over your baseline level*. That is only going to get WORSE in the coming years. People with all electric houses are in SHOCK as to how big their energy bills are, I have heard stories of $2-3k/month for some of these McMansions everyone is building. No think you...

*You didn't think the payouts for all the wildffire lawsuits was going to come out of their pockets, did you?
I read that somewhere in California & New York will ban all natural gas appliances for new residental construction starting around 2035 then around 2045 make residental units get rid of all gas appliances. In my area that is not in 2 mentioned states we probably have over 100,000 row houses and 99% of them only having a 100 amp service. Still some have 30 & 60 amp services. If the homeowner has a class 2 EV charger and all electric house appears they would need a 300 amp service if they intend to charge car, heat the house, cook & use hot water. Would be impossible for Exelon to upgrade the local power grid. Forget about PV. Lucky if 1% of row houses in my area have them. As a life ling sparky absolutely hate the expensive electric method of providing heat.
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Engineer
... Would be impossible for Exelon to upgrade the local power grid. ... hate the expensive electric method of providing heat.
Lots of things were impossible before they were implemented. Heavier-than-air flight. Rural electrification. Lunar landings. Home computers.

For a sense of perspective, let me recommend the book, Men and Volts at War, published c.1948-ish by General Electric.
It's admittedly a self-serving corporate-marketing puff piece, but it reminds us of the truly-awesome scale (and speed) of industrialization that this country is capable of, not least of which was providing electric power for dozens (hundreds?) of cyclotrons and centrifuges the Manhattan Project used for uranium enrichment. (close to 20% of all the electric power consumed in the United States at the time)

Electric heat is only expensive when electricity's expensive. Traditionally, we have started with heat (coal, oil, uranium) and discarded 70% of the input energy in the process of converting it to steam, then to motion, then to electricity. When we get away from thermal powerplants, the price will come down. And when we implement a lot of heat pumps, the consumption will come down.
 
Go to the source-
Natural Gas Prohibition: This ordinance passed by Berkeley City Council prohibits natural gas infrastructure (i.e. gas hookups) in new buildings by amending the City of Berkeley Municipal Code (BMC Title 12). The ordinance prohibits natural gas infrastructure, typically used to provide water and space heating, cooking, and other uses, in new buildings of all types, residential and nonresidential. This ordinance is the first in the nation to prohibit the use of natural gas in new buildings. The ordinance applies to new buildings that apply for land use permits or zoning certificates after January 1, 2020
It's already survived a couple of court challenges.

Re overall efficiency, if we're going to look at the entire electric generation/transmission/etc path, we have to do the same for both methane and propane (from the wellhead to the burner), a quick look hasn't turned up any useful info on that.
 

Jraef

Moderator
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Go to the source-

It's already survived a couple of court challenges.

Re overall efficiency, if we're going to look at the entire electric generation/transmission/etc path, we have to do the same for both methane and propane (from the wellhead to the burner), a quick look hasn't turned up any useful info on that.
Have you ever been to Berkeley? There will be no new homes built there for a long long time. Every square inch of useable land is covered, and they almost violently resist every proposal to increase density. It’s all just talk.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Have you ever been to Berkeley? There will be no new homes built there for a long long time. Every square inch of useable land is covered, and they almost violently resist every proposal to increase density. It’s all just talk.

Um, you have no idea what you're talking about. They've zoned much of the town to allow ADUs and tons of people are building them. They all must be all electric. Also the neighborhoods' abilities to push back against the developers who control the town authorities is very weak. A whole bunch of San Francisco money got poured into a council race to remove a somewhat anti-development councilwoman last year. Multi-story apartment buildings are getting approved and built all along San Pablo and they want to do the same to Adeline and downtown. The vast majority of that will be subject to the new rules. Oh, and they want to build housing over the BART parking lots.
 
Have you ever been to Berkeley?
Quite often- as the crow flies, its border around 5 miles away and I probably hit Urban Ore twice a month just to see what's there.

ADUs* are definitely the thing now, as is multi-story housing over the BART lots like at McArthur. And eventually some of the older houses will fall down and be replaced. I think we can count on more housing being built.

*Accessory Dwelling Units, formerly known as "granny flats"
 

Muneepit

Muneepit
Location
Houston
Occupation
Electrician
Good question. Now compare that to the costs we've already seen from 1°C warming, and the expected costs of business as usual with 2°C or more of warming.


And do you want to tell me that the rock at the water table depth is always protected from the pressures used and that fracking never fractures rock in the vicinity of the water table?

Cheers, Wayne
1°C - 2°C warming? Are you sure? That would be pretty damn hot added on to the normal temperatures. When has the temperature increased 1°C - 2° C?
 
Read that parts of California & New York will not allow any natural gas appliances in about 15 or 20 years in new construction then down the road make all houses get rid of natural gas. In my city they may have 20 to 40 row homes on a 75 KVA transformer. So if these houses have to go to electric heat water heater cooking and EV do you think that any if the ultility companies would be capable of increasing their power distribution at least 3 fold to handle this.I'm thinking that average row house might require a 300 amp service if home owners wanted to heat home run electric dryer cook and charge EV at same time.
Where did you find this info about New York? I have not heard of this and wondering what is up with that? Can you prvide a link to the article?
Only thing I could guess would be insufficient capacity and low pressure issues as being the reason.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Where did you find this info about New York? I have not heard of this and wondering what is up with that? Can you prvide a link to the article?
Only thing I could guess would be insufficient capacity and low pressure issues as being the reason.

As far as I know a moratorium was imposed by POCOs because they can't get enough supply to meet new demand. And that is because environmentalists cried about a new pipeline to supply the area with NG. The POCOs were ordered by the courts to come up with a work around and connect new customers but that will likely result in service interruptions at certain times. So now I see a lot of new homes being built with propane.

As for what will happen in 2035 and 2045, the wind bags can say all they want, it's all BS. What will actually happen is dependent on the politicians in office at the time.

-Hal
 

garbo

Senior Member
Where did you find this info about New York? I have not heard of this and wondering what is up with that? Can you prvide a link to the article?
Only thing I could guess would be insufficient capacity and low pressure issues as being the reason.
Read it somewhere on one of the internet news channels that I use but can not remember the exact one.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
As far as I know a moratorium was imposed by POCOs because they can't get enough supply to meet new demand. And that is because environmentalists cried about a new pipeline to supply the area with NG. The POCOs were ordered by the courts to come up with a work around and connect new customers but that will likely result in service interruptions at certain times. So now I see a lot of new homes being built with propane.

As for what will happen in 2035 and 2045, the wind bags can say all they want, it's all BS. What will actually happen is dependent on the politicians in office at the time.

-Hal
To some extent, that's true. However, taking California as an example, they need to supply 40GW/840GW-hr at peak today, projected to be 65GW by 2045, by which time they want to be 100% renewables unreliables. The current installed base for solar is 14 GW which peaks at 12GW/140GW-hr in the sunniest months of the year. Just to meet today's demand, you would need 6X that installed capacity, and battery storage for about half the GW-hr to get you through the night. Assuming there is a linear shift, you would need to start installing today about 2.8GW of production capacity per year and 16.8GW-hr of battery capacity per year. Every year you don't hit that goal, you have to add even more in the following years. But you can see from the news, no one is putting in anything close to this capacity. As they say in Texas, all hat and no cattle.
 

robertd

Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
electrical contractor
I think that's already standard practice in some/many places- CA ISO talks about non-spinning reserve "capable of being synchronized to the grid and ramping to a specified level within 10 minute".
>synchronized to the grid and ramping to a specified level within 10 minute
Gas turbine can do that. Anything else?
Nuclear..no Coal or Oil..no (Are there any oil fired plants left?)
Hydro, solar or wind, one would assume they would already be running.
 
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