Use 120 ONLY to feed apartments

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George Stolz

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Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Is there separate meters for each unit? If not overcurrent devices do not need to be in the units but the tenants do need to have access to them unless the place has on site staff that can be reached for incidents where access would be needed.

240.24(B) requires what you describe regardless of watt-hour meter location. Were you thinking of putting panels in the hallway, and supplying multiple units from a single panel? Clever. :)
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Looking at the 99, any building above 3 floors couldn't have NM at all. Am I misreading that?

I would have to break out the 99 MA amendments but we could use NM on any floor and it could pass from one floor to another in the same tenant.

But other cables going between floors had to be armored.

I should never have said anything because it seems to be a MA only thing :D
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
240.24(B) requires what you describe regardless of watt-hour meter location. Were you thinking of putting panels in the hallway, and supplying multiple units from a single panel? Clever. :)

That was exactly what I had in mind.


Funny thing is the house appears to provide the heat, water heat, and all other significant energy but wants meters on these feeds that probably have more minimum charge per month than what the energy charge amounts to in most cases.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Funny thing is the house appears to provide the heat, water heat, and all other significant energy but wants meters on these feeds that probably have more minimum charge per month than what the energy charge amounts to in most cases.

Here in MA there is no choice, new or heavily remodeled dwelling units get individual metering.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
'Cause it's the rule.

Why do I have to install a neutral at a switch box?



Of course not. Why ya busting my chops? :)

Not busting your chops, just trying to understand reasoning of MA. May not get very far with that though. Some local rules are not always easy to figure out a good reason for their existence.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Is it feasible to use 60 amp single phase panels in each apartment with the two line buses connected together, which would only provide 120 VAC but would only require 3 wires to feed?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm used to thinking of a "60 amp single phase panel" as having two bussbars, each of which are rated at 60 amps. If the apartments only need 60amps, I see no reason why you need to connect the two bussbars together. Just use only one of the bussbars and leave the other one unused. Even if they are 2-space load centers you could use tandem breakers to get a circuit for lighting and a circuit for receptacles, which it sounds like is all that's needed.

This is leaving aside kwired's comments as to whether or not it is a good economic choice on the wiring.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
That was exactly what I had in mind.


Funny thing is the house appears to provide the heat, water heat, and all other significant energy but wants meters on these feeds that probably have more minimum charge per month than what the energy charge amounts to in most cases.

Here in MA there is no choice, new or heavily remodeled dwelling units get individual metering.

Why?

How about a hotel that has guest rooms that meet the definition of dwelling unit?

kwired probably has answered his question unknowingly, most states do not allow landlords to make money on utilities unless they are a utility theirself. Forcing them to meter each unit seperately eliminates that. Lawmakers in MA just re-enforced the exsisting laws, or removed an exemption if there was one. Extended stay type hotels is considered transient housing, so that may be the way they get around it.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
That was exactly what I had in mind.


Funny thing is the house appears to provide the heat, water heat, and all other significant energy but wants meters on these feeds that probably have more minimum charge per month than what the energy charge amounts to in most cases.

Re-read your post, and figured out you are saying the POCO minimum charge, there again that may be the reason why, the POCO's pushed through the rule to make them more money.:)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
kwired probably has answered his question unknowingly, most states do not allow landlords to make money on utilities unless they are a utility theirself. Forcing them to meter each unit seperately eliminates that. Lawmakers in MA just re-enforced the exsisting laws, or removed an exemption if there was one. Extended stay type hotels is considered transient housing, so that may be the way they get around it.

But the situation in this thread the house is apparently paying for heating, and water heating which is likely the majority of energy used in these particular dwellings, yet it is law to separately meter the electrical energy used for any remaining energy needs in the dwelling(s)??:?
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
But the situation in this thread the house is apparently paying for heating, and water heating which is likely the majority of energy used in these particular dwellings, yet it is law to separately meter the electrical energy used for any remaining energy needs in the dwelling(s)??:?

The POCO has better lobbiest's, the majority of rules are politically motivated, not so much as for safety or saving the enviroment. If a product doesn't sell, make it legally required. There are lots of electrical products out there that are not efficient to use or sell, but with a stroke of a pen, are required. We just have to figure out how to still make money while complying.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The POCO has better lobbiest's, the majority of rules are politically motivated, not so much as for safety or saving the enviroment. If a product doesn't sell, make it legally required. There are lots of electrical products out there that are not efficient to use or sell, but with a stroke of a pen, are required. We just have to figure out how to still make money while complying.

I'd say that this and other silly laws are the result of the general public being ignorant enough on the subject that it does not matter to them therefore the law gets passed because of lobbyists that make it sound like the right thing to do.

They only legislation that gets a lot of public attention is when there are enough people that have an interest from both sides of the issue, otherwise it usually goes somewhat unnoticed.
 
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