Voltage on Washing Machine frame; I am baffled.

[wwhitney]

It could be a bootleg ground on the receptacle (I hadn't considered that in my previous post)

If there's a bootleg ground, then this part of the OP implies there is definitely a neutral problem, as two points on the neutral wiring should not have (so much) voltage relative to them: "Washing machine has 37v on the frame when measured to any neutral or frame of adjacent dryer."

But if the washer and freezer receptacles don't have bootleg grounds, I'm liking a partial hot-ground fault in the washer ground "island". Which won't trip any breakers as the circuit has no EGC.

For testing purposes, one could plug the washer into one of the circuit 10 receptacles with a 3 to 2 prong "cheater" to see if disconnecting the EGC in the cord affects the voltage measurement. If it doesn't, how is either the cord hot or cord neutral getting connected to the washer case? That shouldn't happen, and the problem should be present on any receptacle, which it is not.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[LarryFine]

Does not fix the problem. Just hides it

The washer should have an EGC, so the correct "fix" would be to provide an EGC for the washer.

As long as the dryer is properly bonded through its neutral, it would be effectively the same as providing an EGC for the washer.

 

[oldsparky52]

h*ll, it could be a bum noodle next door , and municipal H2O Old one..... ~RJ~

I would think the only happens on circuit 10 would eliminate that (at least as a front runner).

 

[oldsparky52]

Step 10 I listed, I ran a cable from the panel to overhead box and connected it directly to the cable that feeds washing machine recep. Voltage measured on the washer frame increased to 67v. I moved the temp home run to freezer recep, plugged washing machine in and measured 77v on frame.

I saw the same voltages when I connected the existing home run cable to each receptacle cable individually.


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Okay, I misread this the first time and I retract my statement that it's the neutral between the panel and the light box.

 

[oldsparky52]

This is a laundry room in a single family home, approx 50/yrs old, 2-wire conductors no ground, steel boxes.

Old BX wiring?

 

[oldsparky52]

3-wire receps everywhere

3-wire receptacle on a 2-wire circuit.

By any chance did you meter the voltage from H-N, H-G, N-G at the receptacle the washer is plugged into?

 

[brantmacga]

3-wire receptacle on a 2-wire circuit.

By any chance did you meter the voltage from H-N, H-G, N-G at the receptacle the washer is plugged into?

L-N = 121
L-G = 0v
N-G = 0v

All with receptacle still in the box.

No bootleg grounds.

For most of the other testing, I had the two #10 receptacles out of the wall, and removed cable clamps from both of those boxes and from the overhead box.


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[Little Bill]

Might be worth putting a GFCI receptacle in for the washer and see if it trips.

 

[LarryFine]

L-N = 121
L-G = 0v
N-G = 0v

I would check the hot to the neutral and the ground with a solenoid tester, not a voltmeter.

 

[Fred B]

Here is a stupid question. Is the voltage present only when washer running or also if washer is off?

 

[oldsparky52]

L-N = 121
L-G = 0v
N-G = 0v

Well dang, that makes it even more confusing.

 

[oldsparky52]

I am curious as to why you would extend an existing 2-wire circuit with wiremold (ckt12 is 2-wire also, right?) instead of coming out of the panel and over to the washer with a new 3-wire circuit? Can't be that much more in materials.

 

[Little Bill]

I am curious as to why you would extend an existing 2-wire circuit with wiremold (ckt12 is 2-wire also, right?) instead of coming out of the panel and over to the washer with a new 3-wire circuit? Can't be that much more in materials.

Be easier to come out of #12. Put a Wiremold box on existing box and run Wiremold over to another Wiremold box connected to washer's existing box. Be much harder coming out of the panel if it's a flush mount, which I assume it is.

 

[synchro]

L-N = 121
L-G = 0v
N-G = 0v

All with receptacle still in the box.

No bootleg grounds.

For most of the other testing, I had the two #10 receptacles out of the wall, and removed cable clamps from both of those boxes and from the overhead box.

My thinking in posts 17 and 34 was that the washer receptacle on circuit #10 would not have a bootleg ground, but that others such as those on circuit #12 would have a bootleg ground (perhaps to make many plug-in circuit testers show that it's OK).

A L-G filter capacitor in the washer could bring an open ground wire up in voltage considerably if it was loaded with only a high impedance meter and a low stray capacitance. And so wiring up just the washer or just the freezer leg of circuit #10 would reduce the capacitance and allow the G-N voltage at the receptacle (and therefore the washer housing to neutral voltage) to rise higher when the washer with its internal filter caps is plugged in.

I assume that the voltages you quoted above are at the receptacle without the washer plugged in? If so then you might pull the receptacle from the box and measure those voltages at the terminals when the washer is plugged in. The washer wouldn't have to be running to have its filter capacitor drawing current across L-G. I'm thinking such a current would have to be less than 4mA because otherwise the washer would not be compatible with GFCI's. But even a few mA can give you a noticeable shock.

 

[oldsparky52]

Be easier to come out of #12. Put a Wiremold box on existing box and run Wiremold over to another Wiremold box connected to washer's existing box. Be much harder coming out of the panel if it's a flush mount, which I assume it is.

And where would the wiremold get a ground?

 

[brantmacga]

I am curious as to why you would extend an existing 2-wire circuit with wiremold (ckt12 is 2-wire also, right?) instead of coming out of the panel and over to the washer with a new 3-wire circuit? Can't be that much more in materials.

In a couple of posts I’ve stated the attic space is completely inaccessible; flat roof above. And also that it sits on a slab.


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[brantmacga]

And where would the wiremold get a ground?

Would use GFCI receptacle


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[wwhitney]

L-N = 121
L-G = 0v
N-G = 0v

Same meter as the other measurements, high impedance or low impedance?

Anywhere, there goes my theory. I like synchro's theory now, under which the case voltage would still be present if you isolate the EGC in the cord from the receptacle. And then the voltage has to be from something internal to the washer, some behavior that is fine when the receptacle has an EGC, but causes the observed voltages when it doesn't. E.g. synchro's theory.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Fred B]

L-N = 121
L-G = 0v
N-G = 0v

L-N reading normal
L-G reading normal open ground
N-G reading normal or the open ground effecting potential reading.
37V on frame, if present when washer is operating but not if turned off would indicate an internal issue. If present on washer regardless of operating status I would look to supply circuit for a nail or staple penetration creating a high resistance short. Seen too many barrowed or joined neutrals giving similar readings. One a hidden jbox that had neutrals joined and when a light was turned on had that similar 30 something volts.

Seems you have a noncompliant installation regardless of issues. 210.11(C)(2), 210.8(A)(10), 210.52(F), 406.4(D)(1)(2), 250.130(C), 430.241

 

[kwired]

Here is a stupid question. Is the voltage present only when washer running or also if washer is off?

no it is not stupid, I was going to ask what is running and what is not when measurements were taken, and if readings change when things are loaded vs unloaded.