Voltage on Washing Machine frame; I am baffled.

[kwired]

Someone already mentioned it, but if it is a newer unit with variable speed drive that likely is a contributing factor, though I can't put that in with the fact he only seems to have a problem when connected to breaker position #10.

Run a temp circuit with intact EGC (even connected to breaker 10) and I'd guess your frame voltage goes away. But if you also GFCI protect it, it very likely trips the GFCI because there is leakage current.

 

[kwired]

I had a VSD washer one time that was tripping GFCI it was connected to. Plugged it into a two to three prong adapter and it stopped tripping, but that was for testing only and wasn't to be a solution. I bet if I would have tested frame for stray voltage would have gotten some.

My experience with appliance repair guys in the past was tripping GFCI's to them means the GFCI has a problem so I needed to find what was causing trip before even thinking about having customer get a repairman. This unit had a "grounding switch" that isolated the motor and drum housing from the main cabinet, but it closed contact to the main cabinet (and EGC) when you removed the back cover. The plastic clips that hold this switch into place broke and therefore switch was closed even though back cover was installed. Doing some Googling on this led to very little info about it, but apparently they isolate the motor and other internals from the EGC to prevent GFCI issues, but if you open back cover people are exposed to the hazards and therefore they close that switch with cover open.

 

[wwhitney]

The washer should have an EGC, so the correct "fix" would be to provide an EGC for the washer.

Given that the meter/combo is on the backside of the wall with the washer receptacle, is this a rare case where it makes sense to use 250.130(C) to just add an EGC from the meter/combo?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[LarryFine]

Given that the meter/combo is on the backside of the wall with the washer receptacle, is this a rare case where it makes sense to use 250.130(C) to just add an EGC from the meter/combo?

If a washer-to-dryer jumper works, but a separate wire is preferred, couldn't it just connect to the cold-water supply pipe?

 

[ActionDave]

If a washer-to-dryer jumper works, but a separate wire is preferred, couldn't it just connect to the cold-water supply pipe?

It is supposed to be within five feet of the water pipe entering the home or landed on the GEC

 

[ramsy]

Seems you have a noncompliant installation regardless of issues. 210.11(C)(2), 210.8(A)(10), 210.52(F), 406.4(D)(1)(2), 250.130(C), 430.241

Fred, I looked up your code sections.

New-work code does not retroactively apply to 50yr old construction, unless the room is rewired or remodeled. Not the code you cited.

As referenced by 406.4(E) Note: appliances may require grounding per 250.114(3), without the double-insulation exception.

But, only contractors touching these old outlets may be liable for 406.4(D)2 replacement code, per Joint and Several liability, and only DIY property owners replacing 3-prong "Construction Defect" on 2-wire cables may void property Insurance.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

House 50, years old.
Has it had a panel change recently?
Houses of that age used a black wire to ground kitchen/ bath receptacles/ lights if old two wire cloth type.
I've seen this this black ground wire get hooked up to a breaker. It will cause an issue like you have.
This black wire can be spotted easily as it leaves the panel by it's self. A lot of the time this gets hooked to the water line. If the water service or interior water lines have been changed to plastic. It cause issues similar to what your having.

 

[Little Bill]

And where would the wiremold get a ground?

I wasn't talking about adding an EGC. I was talking about ease of installation from adjacent receptacle vs from the panel. OP had already stated that access above was not there, and obviously didn't want to open up walls. So surface mounting Wiremold from recep to recep was the easiest route.

 

[oldsparky52]

I wasn't talking about adding an EGC. I was talking about ease of installation from adjacent receptacle vs from the panel. OP had already stated that access above was not there, and obviously didn't want to open up walls. So surface mounting Wiremold from recep to recep was the easiest route.

I understand, my perspective is wiremold can go across the ceiling if need be and it's not much farther. New circuit, and you know all the bonding will be correct.

 

[brantmacga]

I understand, my perspective is wiremold can go across the ceiling if need be and it's not much farther. New circuit, and you know all the bonding will be correct.

you're not wrong, but they didn't want to see it, and using the GFCI Recep at circuit #12 Recep location would be compliant.

 

[Fred B]

Fred, I looked up your code sections.

New-work code does not retroactively apply to 50yr old construction, unless the room is rewired or remodeled. Not the code you cited.

As referenced by 406.4(E) Note: appliances may require grounding per 250.114(3), without the double-insulation exception.

But, only contractors touching these old outlets may be liable for 406.4(D)2 replacement code, per Joint and Several liability, and only DIY property owners replacing 3-prong "Construction Defect" on 2-wire cables may void property Insurance.

Codes only apply to the contractor?
When was washer added? An original installation that was not compliant when done is not "grandfathered", it is simply not compliant.
Is washer a 3 wire cord? Then it must have a grounded receptacle. If no ground present, then 2 options present, add a grounding conductor, or add a GFCI receptacle. Both are part of code reference made. Code reference also precludes use of an extension cord for an appliance. But, I might try an extension cord for diagnostic purposes only to see if going to a known good ground eliminates the voltage to the machine enclosure. If it does then a rewire would be indicated with proper grounding.

you're not wrong, but they didn't want to see it, and using the GFCI Recep at circuit #12 Recep location would be compliant.

Might want to look at 210.50(C) requirements before suggesting that as a solution.

 

[synchro]

you're not wrong, but they didn't want to see it, and using the GFCI Recep at circuit #12 Recep location would be compliant.

Might want to look at 210.50(C) requirements before suggesting that as a solution.

I'm thinking that Brant was proposing to daisy chain 2-wire conductors off of the load side of a GFCI receptacle that's located at the circuit #12 outlet, and route them through Wiremold over to a regular receptacle near the washer (within the required 6 ft.). I could be wrong, however.

 

[Fred B]

I'm thinking that Brant was proposing to daisy chain 2-wire conductors off of the load side of a GFCI receptacle that's located at the circuit #12 outlet, and route them through Wiremold over to a regular receptacle near the washer (within the required 6 ft.). I could be wrong, however.

No his comment in post #70 indicated customer didn't want to see a wiremold.

 

[ptonsparky]

It is an easy fix. Tell owner sheetrock will be removed and replaced as needed. They are responsible for taping and painting.

No? Suggest they quit touching the washer and dryer at the same time.

Interesting thread. I suspect a megger needs to be involved. I also like the VFD issue, but why only circuit 10?
Doing laundry this morning. I will isolate and measure voltage between W&D later. Unfortunately my dryer is 4 wire.

 

[Fred B]

Seems to be the case of a customer wanting a miracle worker to stop the shock issue but dont fix the root of the problem. Tie hands to every real correction. A handiman likely got them into this issue to start with, maybe they just need to have a handiman "fix it", if they are unwilling to have it done correctly (to code). Seems if you've ruled out a faulty machine as the cause, you are left with only a couple of options to allow for a proper rewire as #10 seems to be faulty somewhere. None of which most customers like, one includes making a couple of holes into the sheetrock to gain access to pull a new circuit, 2 still making holes in the sheetrock but also chipping out concrete to gain access from below, or 3 the wiremold option. Not sure of cost comparison between the 3, but that it seems what is left. I've used metal wiremold and put it down at baseboard molding or behind crown molding to hide it, ran new circuit that way due to bad BX into a hidden inaccessible jbox with 4 circuits that had all the neutrals tied together giving voltage onto the others even when the other 3 was off. Can run conduit in similar fashion to sleeve NM.

 

[romex jockey]

Not sure of cost comparison between the 3, but that it seems what is left

wish we had some sort of way to calculate all that handyman hackery Fred

~RJ~

 

[oldsparky52]

I really don't care how it gets "fixed", I just want to know how this voltage is showing up!

Is the wiring NM or BX or ?

 

[Fred B]

wish we had some sort of way to calculate all that handyman hackery Fred

~RJ~

Which calculation? The cost when the hack gets paid, then add to it cost to get it fixed right? Cost in dangerous conditions created by hack installation with potential for loss of life? Or overall industry cost with "savings" adjusted in because customer says "the lights come on, so why is it wrong"?

 

[retirede]

I had a similar experience with a TV(also an LG brand).
My mother in law gets a new TV - it has a 3-wire cord plugged in to an existing 2-wire circuit via 3 pin adapter (no EGC). When attempting to connect the coax from the cable box (2-wire cord plugged into the same duplex as the TV), sparks fly. Powerful enough to leave marks on the coax connectors. This is when I got called. I told them that the TV was likely defective so they returned it for replacement.

Replacement TV has the same issue. I did verify that the orientation of the adapter had the hot and neutral to the correct pins on the plug. I had them install a proper 5-15 receptacle on a new home run to the panel. No more problems.

Something in that model TV’s circuitry causes voltage on its ground connection if not properly grounded.

It’s possible that the subject washing machine exhibits this same phenomenon.

 

[Fred B]

I really don't care how it gets "fixed", I just want to know how this voltage is showing up!

Is the wiring NM or BX or ?

Sounds as if the customer not really interested in finding and fixing the why. I think Brant said it had BX wiring. Most times I've seen based on reported age of installation, a bonding of neutrals from multiple circuits was done. I've seen those numbers many times from just that situation and some were in a hidden jbox, covered by sheetrock or a cabinet installed over it.
Another scenario BX sheath can act as grounding conductor in limited fashion and if there is a high impedance connection connection between the conductors and the sheath maybe from nail or screw, the ground of the appliance can become energized. Given voltage readings present when connecting between washers enclosure to unrelated grounded circuit seems would be very likely. And without a ground connection back to the breaker it would never trip. Pulled one out once that had a finish nail driven dead center through the hot conductor of a NM wire, been that way for years (best guess based on customers statement). Literally a hole in the center of the copper of a #12 wire. If that been a BX the sheath would have become energized and without an adequate connection for grounding would never trip breaker.
Appears the washer is on a grounded receptacle with no grounding conductor back to source. If receptacle is bonded to box that has the above situation then it will carry into any grounded appliance plugged into it. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is if a test to meter between the receptacle box of #10 circuit and the dryer enclosure for voltage. Another confirmation not commented on is if an ohm reading between the N/G on appliance plug was done to determine if there was a high impedance N/G leakage inside appliance.