Voltage on Washing Machine frame; I am baffled.

[oldsparky52]

Sounds as if the customer not really interested in finding and fixing the why. I think Brant said it had BX wiring. Most times I've seen based on reported age of installation, a bonding of neutrals from multiple circuits was done. I've seen those numbers many times from just that situation and some were in a hidden jbox, covered by sheetrock or a cabinet installed over it.
Another scenario BX sheath can act as grounding conductor in limited fashion and if there is a high impedance connection connection between the conductors and the sheath maybe from nail or screw, the ground of the appliance can become energized. Given voltage readings present when connecting between washers enclosure to unrelated grounded circuit seems would be very likely. And without a ground connection back to the breaker it would never trip. Pulled one out once that had a finish nail driven dead center through the hot conductor of a NM wire, been that way for years (best guess based on customers statement). Literally a hole in the center of the copper of a #12 wire. If that been a BX the sheath would have become energized and without an adequate connection for grounding would never trip breaker.
Appears the washer is on a grounded receptacle with no grounding conductor back to source. If receptacle is bonded to box that has the above situation then it will carry into any grounded appliance plugged into it. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is if a test to meter between the receptacle box of #10 circuit and the dryer enclosure for voltage. Another confirmation not commented on is if an ohm reading between the N/G on appliance plug was done to determine if there was a high impedance N/G leakage inside appliance.

I didn't see where the cabling was identified as BX, but that would fit with everything else I've read here. I agree that there is a high resistance connection of a conductor to the BX on circuit #10. Since the voltage at the receptacle is reported as in post #47, I think the connection is between the neutral and the sheath.

A lot of good ideas posted. I particularly like Larry's suggestion about connecting a jumper from the washer to the dryer frames and put an amp meter on it.

IMO this is one of those problems that it's cheaper to abandon that circuit, but what to do about the lights.

I feel for Brant, I never liked being in the position he is in.

Brant, did you ever test the conductors with an ohm meter when you had them disconnected (I didn't think you had your megger with you)?

 

[brantmacga]

Sounds as if the customer not really interested in finding and fixing the why. I think Brant said it had BX wiring.

Well, no, they asked me to find out what's wrong, and the subject of this thread is me trying to figure out what's wrong. As I was unable to, I gave them to option to abandon the wiring and do the wiremold option from circuit #12. I don't know that its worth tearing the walls and ceiling apart to replace the wiring. Its 12/2 NM without ground also.

I did look at 210.50(C) and I didn't see what would prevent me from doing that... Maybe another code section you have in mind? I thought of dropping from the meter/combo and through the wall, but its a 4-space panel and those slots are full with 240v loads.

(C) Appliance Receptacle Outlets. Appliance receptacle
outlets installed in a dwelling unit for specific appliances, such
as laundry equipment, shall be installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of
the intended location of the appliance.

 

[brantmacga]

Brant, did you ever test the conductors with an ohm meter when you had them disconnected (I didn't think you had your megger with you)?

Yes, I tested every cable with it completely disconnected. And no I didn't have the megger with me unfortunately. This place is an hour away also which makes it more aggravating that I can't just swing by when I have a free minute.

 

[wwhitney]

Yes, I tested every cable with it completely disconnected. And no I didn't have the megger with me unfortunately. This place is an hour away also which makes it more aggravating that I can't just swing by when I have a free minute.

Did you open the receptacles on circuit 12 and check them for bootleg ground or proper EGC (if newer vintage)?

If you did, and those consist of 2 wire cables to a 3 wire receptacle with no bootleg ground, that is a problem for synchro's theory.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[LarryFine]

I did look at 210.50(C) and I didn't see what would prevent me from doing that... Maybe another code section you have in mind? I thought of dropping from the meter/combo and through the wall, but its a 4-space panel and those slots are full with 240v loads.

If you can do that, why not just run an EGC?

 

[brantmacga]

Did you open the receptacles on circuit 12 and check them for bootleg ground or proper EGC (if newer vintage)?

If you did, and those consist of 2 wire cables to a 3 wire receptacle with no bootleg ground, that is a problem for synchro's theory.

Cheers, Wayne

Yes, I opened that receptacle.... no bootleg ground.

 

[synchro]

Did you open the receptacles on circuit 12 and check them for bootleg ground or proper EGC (if newer vintage)?

If you did, and those consist of 2 wire cables to a 3 wire receptacle with no bootleg ground, that is a problem for synchro's theory.

I think it might be sufficient to check for continuity between the neutral and ground of the receptacle on circuit #12 while leaving the receptacle in place. If it shows an open circuit then there is no bootleg ground and my theory would not explain the observed behavior.

 

[ptonsparky]

I would like to say ghost voltage, but the tingle shoots that all to heck.

 

[brantmacga]

If you can do that, why not just run an EGC?

That is an idea; I think I may still need to run new wiring from circuit #12 over.

I think then what I should likely do is pull the #10 Recep out of the wall, add an EGC and see what happens. The fact that it doesn't happen on any other circuit leads me to believe there is a problem in the circuit #10 wiring.

 

[brantmacga]

I would like to say ghost voltage, but the tingle shoots that all to heck.

yeh. you definitely feel it. And the burn marks on the dryer prove it.

 

[Fred B]

Well, no, they asked me to find out what's wrong, and the subject of this thread is me trying to figure out what's wrong. As I was unable to, I gave them to option to abandon the wiring and do the wiremold option from circuit #12. I don't know that its worth tearing the walls and ceiling apart to replace the wiring. Its 12/2 NM without ground also.

I did look at 210.50(C) and I didn't see what would prevent me from doing that... Maybe another code section you have in mind? I thought of dropping from the meter/combo and through the wall, but its a 4-space panel and those slots are full with 240v loads.

(C) Appliance Receptacle Outlets. Appliance receptacle
outlets installed in a dwelling unit for specific appliances, such
as laundry equipment, shall be installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of
the intended location of the appliance.

You're talking adding length to that circuit to get under the 6ft max? If so, depending on distance of new wiring, 210.12(D) is in play.
Seems odd that NM even 50yrs old had no EGC, most had at least the undersized grounding conductor, I've come across many that by simply looking into box looked like it had none but later found either it was an undersized folded back and made contact to the box clamp or cut off. If that is the case the same scenario can happen as the BX that had a nail through it, and seen many that was never really bonded at the breaker panel for same reason. Any add on or fix of similar nature initiates bringing circuit up to code.

 

[ramsy]

Code reference also precludes use of an extension cord for an appliance.

Roger that. I've been citing 400.12 for extension-cord corrections.

 

[synchro]

Yes, I opened that receptacle.... no bootleg ground.

You might still measure if there is continuity between ground and neutral of the circuit #12 receptacle if you haven't already done so. If there is continuity (from somethIng upstream of the receptacle) then that would explain why the tingle does not occur when using the #12 circuit receptacle.

I think then what I should likely do is pull the #10 Recep out of the wall, add an EGC and see what happens.

That would be a good thing to try. You could then check if there is any measurable current on a temporary EGC. If a clamp meter does not show any noticeable current, there still might be a few milliamps flowing if your clamp meter does not resolve such low currents. Most of them cannot. In this case putting a meter in line with the EGC could measure mA level currents, although not all meters have the capability of measuring AC current through the probes either.

 

[Little Bill]

Here's another possible solution. It would be a little more Wiremold but would be worth it IMO. Cut out for a push-in old work box under the panel. Then drop a new circuit with an EGC down, put in the old work box, add a Wiremold box to the OW box. Then run Wiremold around the wall to washer recep, add WM box and new recep.
In the ceiling, cap off the run to the washer, just leave lights and freezer on that circuit.
BTW, can't remember if the freezer is presenting the same problem?

I will say that I'd rather know/find what the problem is!

 

[Strathead]

First, we know that we have a faulty neutral to ground connection. No other way to have a voltage between neutral and ground. We also know it is between the utility transformer and the washing machine. So, with the washing machine running, test the voltage at the joint in the light from neutral to ground 0v the problem is toward the light, voltage, the problem is toward the panel. Next test it at the panel. etc.

 

[kwired]

First, we know that we have a faulty neutral to ground connection. No other way to have a voltage between neutral and ground. We also know it is between the utility transformer and the washing machine. So, with the washing machine running, test the voltage at the joint in the light from neutral to ground 0v the problem is toward the light, voltage, the problem is toward the panel. Next test it at the panel. etc.

There will be voltage drop on neutral conductor when it is loaded. Though in shorter distances of conductor runs it won't be very much at all, especially not in the 30-40 volt ranges.

 

[brantmacga]

First, we know that we have a faulty neutral to ground connection. No other way to have a voltage between neutral and ground. We also know it is between the utility transformer and the washing machine. So, with the washing machine running, test the voltage at the joint in the light from neutral to ground 0v the problem is toward the light, voltage, the problem is toward the panel. Next test it at the panel. etc.

I tested voltage on the receptacle with washer running, and there was 0 voltage drop; I also used an extension cord running from receptacle #12 to measure against the neutral of that circuit.

I appreciate all these ideas from everyone.

 

[wwhitney]

A couple further comments:

If I have read correctly, the washer has only been tested on circuits 10 and 12. So it's unclear if the energized frame as on #10 or the unenergized frame as on #12 is the typical behavior of this washer on an ungrounded 2 wire circuit. It does show that there's a difference between circuits #10 and #12, the specifics of which have yet to be determined.

I suggest powering the washer with a known-good temporary 2-wire circuit and seeing if it develops a voltage from case to N. If it does, add the EGC and see if it goes away. If so and it's not defective then it simply can't be used on a 2-wire circuit (which the NEC and the instructions both tell you). And circuit #12 must somehow be bonding the washer case.

If it doesn't develop a voltage from case to N on a known-good 2-wire circuit, then there's some defect in the wiring on circuit #10, although I'm at a loss as to what sort of defect would exhibit the symptoms described.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[oldsparky52]

I will say that I'd rather know/find what the problem is!

Yea, but ... $$

 

[oldsparky52]

If I have read correctly, the washer has only been tested on circuits 10 and 12. So it's unclear if the energized frame as on #10 or the unenergized frame as on #12 is the typical behavior of this washer on an ungrounded 2 wire circuit. It does show that there's a difference between circuits #10 and #12, the specifics of which have yet to be determined.

Could it be that the difference is they on different "phases"? There are actually 2 faults, one on the dryer and one on the washer? The dryer fault is on the same phase as circuit 10 so there is no voltage fault to fault if they are on the same phase.

Yea, reaching but ...