Warning ribbon confusion

[george t. everett]

I the question & answer section of the EC&M mag, a question was asked if a warning ribbon was required if the service lateral was run in conduit? Mike's answer was no , only for direct burial conductors. In the march issue of Electrical Contractor mag the same question was asked & the answer was yes. Only if encased in concrete is a ribbon not required. I'm
confused. Is it or isn't it required for conduit laterals?

 

[augie47]

The wording might lead to different opinions:

(3) Service Conductors. Underground service conductors that are not encased in concrete and that are buried 450 mm (18 in.) or more below grade shall have their location identified by a warning ribbon that is placed in the trench at least 300 mm (12 in.) above the underground installation.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

The wording might lead to different opinions:

(3) Service Conductors. Underground service conductors that are not encased in concrete and that are buried 450 mm (18 in.) or more below grade shall have their location identified by a warning ribbon that is placed in the trench at least 300 mm (12 in.) above the underground installation.

Using there own words INCASED IN CONCRETE answers it. Yours are incased in PVC so yes ribbon

 

[jusme123]

Using there own words INCASED IN CONCRETE answers it. Yours are incased in PVC so yes ribbon

please do not forget the AND in the sentence, lets start a trend of believing the intent of the word. I see a taco bet budding.

 

[iwire]

The wording might lead to different opinions:

(3) Service Conductors. Underground service conductors that are not encased in concrete and that are buried 450 mm (18 in.) or more below grade shall have their location identified by a warning ribbon that is placed in the trench at least 300 mm (12 in.) above the underground installation.

It says service conductors not service raceways, it does not apply to service raceways.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

It says service conductors not service raceways, it does not apply to service raceways.

Here we go again !!!!
Bob, it says IF NOT incased in concrete
If they are in PVC then that is what is protecting them.
Who would incase wire in concrete directly ?
Do i see another burrito and a pole ?

 

[augie47]

It says service conductors not service raceways, it does not apply to service raceways.

thank you ! my point :grin:
clear to some is not necessarily clear to all

 

[iwire]

Bob casts the hook ...........

Here we go again !!!!
Bob, it says IF NOT incased in concrete
If they are in PVC then that is what is protecting them.
Who would incase wire in concrete directly ?
Do i see another burrito and a pole ?

... and reels one in. :grin:

Jim, lets look together.

300.5 Underground Installations.

(A) Minimum Cover Requirements. Direct-buried cable or conduit or other raceways shall be installed to meet the minimum cover requirements of Table 300.5.

(B) Wet Locations. The interior of enclosures or raceways installed underground shall be considered to be a wet location. Insulated conductors and cables installed in these enclosures or raceways in underground installations shall be listed for use in wet locations and shall comply with 310.8(C). Any connections or splices in an underground installation shall be approved for wet locations.

(C) Underground Cables Under Buildings. Underground cable installed under a building shall be in a raceway.


(D) Protection from Damage. Direct-buried conductors and cables shall be protected from damage in accordance with 300.5(D)(1) through (D)(4).


(1) Emerging from Grade. Direct-buried conductors and cables emerging from grade and specified in columns 1 and 4 of Table 300.5 shall be protected by enclosures or raceways extending from the minimum cover distance below grade required by 300.5(A) to a point at least 2.5 m (8 ft) above finished grade. In no case shall the protection be required to exceed 450 mm (18 in.) below finished grade.

(2) Conductors Entering Buildings. Conductors entering a building shall be protected to the point of entrance.


(3) Service Conductors. Underground service conductors that are not encased in concrete and that are buried 450 mm (18 in.) or more below grade shall have their location identified by a warning ribbon that is placed in the trench at least 300 mm (12 in.) above the underground installation.

(4) Enclosure or Raceway Damage. Where the enclosure or raceway is subject to physical damage, the conductors
shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, or equivalent.

300.5(D) tells us (3) only applies to direct direct-buried conductors and cables.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Bob casts the hook ...........



... and reels one in. :grin:

Jim, lets look together.




300.5(D) tells us (3) only applies to direct direct-buried conductors and cables.

I partly agree with you on this as the words support what your saying but i do not believe that was the intent.

Who would ever incase just the conductors ? That is crazy as we know concrete will crack.
What would be the point in doing this ? PVC in concrete i understand

 

[acrwc10]

Kind of a interesting area, if they are "Service Conductors" they would mostly fall under POCO rules. Tape not required here by POCO for conduit. But if they are not under POCO they would typically be "Feeders". So who's alter do you kneel at the POCO or NEC ?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I partly agree with you on this as the words support what your saying but i do not believe that was the intent.

Who would ever incase just the conductors ? That is crazy as we know concrete will crack.
What would be the point in doing this ? PVC in concrete i understand

It appears that the intent is that the ribbon is only used for directly buried conductors that are installed by the open trench method. The first proposal shown below was submitted for the 2005 code and the second for the 2002 code.

3-37 Log #1465 NEC-P03
(300-5)
Final Action: Reject
Submitter: Jamie McNamara Hastings, MN
Recommendation:
I underlined added text and put a strike through deleted text.
"300.5 Underground Installations..."
(D) Protection from Damage. Direct-buried conductors and cables shall be protected from damage in accordance with (1) through (4) (5).
(1) Emerging from Grade. Direct-buried conductors and enclosures emerging from grade shall be protected by enclosures or raceways
extending from the minimum cover distance required by 300.5(A) below grade to a point at least 2.5 m (8 ft) above finished grade. In no
case shall the protection be required to exceed 450 mm (18 in.) below finished grade.
(2) Conductors Entering Buildings. Conductors entering a building shall be protected to the point of entrance.
(3) Service Conductors. Underground service conductors that are not encased in concrete and that are buried 450 mm (18 in.) or more
below grade shall have their location identified by a warning ribbon that is placed in the trench at least 300 mm (12 in.) above the
underground installation.
(3) (4) Enclosure or Raceway Damage. Where the enclosure or raceway is subject to physical damage, the conductors shall be installed in
rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, Schedule 80 rigid nonmetallic conduit, or equivalent.
(4) (5) Listing. Cables and insulated conductors installed in enclosures or raceways in underground installations shall be listed for use
in wet locations.
"(E) ?"
(G) Service Conductors. Underground service conductors that are not encased in concrete or in metal conduit and that are buried 450
mm (18 in.) or more below grade shall have their location identified by a warning ribbon that is placed in the trench at least 300 mm (12
in.) above the underground installation.
Substantiation:
To require nonmetallic conduits (PVC) containing service conductors to have an identification ribbon. When excavating around
nonmetallic conduits, the conduits and the conductors inside are often damaged and striped, exposing the excavator to hazards, before
being recognized as conduit and conductors.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement:
The first method of protection of service conductors should be prevention and this can often be accomplished by first finding the
location of the conductors using a locator tool. Once that is accomplished then the backhoe or trencher operator has an idea that there
are service conductors in the location of the dig. Direct buried service conductors are much more easily damaged, even when the operator
is scratching the surface of the trench to locate the conductors, than when the conductors are installed in a raceway. The purpose of the
ribbon is to provide a marker so that the operator can then know the direct buried conductors are located six inches below that level.
The ribbon would not be of any use if the operator of the backhoe or trencher just started digging in the area without knowing if
anything at all is buried in that area, even if the conductors were enclosed in a steel or PVC raceway.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11 Negative: 1
Explanation of Negative:
CASPARRO: This proposal should be given further consideration. 300.5(D) applies only to direct buried conductors and does not
cover installations in raceways. A back hoe digging a trench can cause significant damage to underground raceways and the installed
conductors potentially exposing workers to a hazardous condition. I disagree with the panel statement that determining the location of
buried raceways and conductors should be solely dependent on the accuracy of a locator tool. The addition of a warning ribbon will
provide a physical means of early detection that could prevent serious injury to persons performing excavation work and should be
required.

3- 43 - (300-5(d)): Reject
SUBMITTER: Larry T. Smith, Nat'l Electrical Seminars
RECOMMENDATION: Revise the second paragraph to read:
"Service laterals that are not encased in concrete and that are
buried 18 in. (457 mm) or more below grade shall have their
location identified by a warning ribbon that is placed in the
trench at least 12 in. (305 mm) above the underground
installation service lateral. Horizontally bored service laterals
shall be exempt from this requirement."
SUBSTANTIATION: How is the installer to provide a warning
ribbon above a service lateral that is being horizontally bored
under a roadway, or parking lot, or street intersection? The
nature of horizontal boring is used in those areas where trenching
is impractical. At present, the only way to comply with this
paragraph is to bore a second hole above the service lateral for
the warning ribbon. The new wording will exempt horizontally
bored services from the requirement of a warning ribbon.
The words underground installation are vague; if the warning
ribbon is to be placed at least twelve inches above the service
lateral, it should just say so.
PANEL ACTION: Reject.
PANEL STATEMENT: Present language only addresses trenching
and not boring, thus boring is already excluded from the ribbon
requirement.
NUMBER OF PANEL MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 11
VOTE ON PANEL ACTION:
AFFIRMATIVE: 11

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Kind of a interesting area, if they are "Service Conductors" they would mostly fall under POCO rules. Tape not required here by POCO for conduit. But if they are not under POCO they would typically be "Feeders". So who's alter do you kneel at the POCO or NEC ?

Not always poco the POCO's install or wire. Here on comercial we usually install to the transformer.
My question is are they suggesting we pour concrete over service conductors directly ?

As far as running the ribbon my boss would give me an a-- chewing
if i forgot but we were always above the min.

 

[ohmhead]

Well let me add this code is fine butttttttt

warning tape is cheap think your running unfused power underground from a transformer some one digs the tape thats placed on top of a poured duck bank will help i know this well .


We place it one foot above concrete encase stuff we place it 2 feet above pvc or rigid not poured or encased code or no code .

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Well let me add this code is fine butttttttt

warning tape is cheap think your running unfused power underground from a transformer some one digs the tape thats placed on top of a poured duck bank will help i know this well .


We place it one foot above concrete encase stuff we place it 2 feet above pvc or rigid not poured or encased code or no code .

Yes but in recent weeks we seem to have turned this into a strictly by the book forum.
Common since can not be used LOL

And it is fused ,just not at an amperage that would protect the wire drop. Does save transformers

 

[roger]

Yes but in recent weeks we seem to have turned this into a strictly by the book forum.
Common since can not be used LOL

Maybe for you Jim, I don't remember anyone saying you can't or shouldn't do more than the code allows, but you can do as you wish.

Roger

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Yes but in recent weeks we seem to have turned this into a strictly by the book forum.
Common since can not be used LOL

And it is fused ,just not at an amperage that would protect the wire drop. Does save transformers

The questions and answers here are often based on what the code actually requires...not how any of us might make the installation.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

The questions and answers here are often based on what the code actually requires...not how any of us might make the installation.

And that is what it should be. Most here go over the min

 

[ohmhead]

And that is what it should be. Most here go over the min

Well its not good enough for me i guess iam going to try and change the nec code on this one ill send in the paper work this year.

Its fused at the primary but the secondary is not going to let go for the time that it takes to break into a conduit and hit one hot conductor which may not trip the primary and you have a major accident waiting to happen if the back hoe or track hoe takes out the whole duckbank it will trip the primary but its not going to be pretty theres lots of digs going on today and lots of issues that some of us here dont see everyday its getting worst each year ! This to me is important and we see it lacking in the code its got to change its 2010 .

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Well its not good enough for me i guess iam going to try and change the nec code on this one ill send in the paper work this year.

Its fused at the primary but the secondary is not going to let go for the time that it takes to break into a conduit and hit one hot conductor which may not trip the primary and you have a major accident waiting to happen if the back hoe or track hoe takes out the whole duckbank it will trip the primary but its not going to be pretty theres lots of digs going on today and lots of issues that some of us here dont see everyday its getting worst each year ! This to me is important and we see it lacking in the code its got to change its 2010 .

Please do because as much as i disagree the code simply was poorly written or i just have been seasoned to believe the tape was always required. Without warning a backhoe will take that service out in conduit or concrete or both. When digging we usually only go a few inches at a time so we spot the tape.

 

[ohmhead]

Please do because as much as i disagree the code simply was poorly written or i just have been seasoned to believe the tape was always required. Without warning a backhoe will take that service out in conduit or concrete or both. When digging we usually only go a few inches at a time so we spot the tape.

Well Jim ive never have been engaged or involved in any code changes there is someone at work in our office that is and has
contacts with the members who can who can act or help with this maybe we can correct what needs to be added.


Its not a issue all electricians see everyday and i can understand the code and why .


I do power distribution only everyday every job mostly 99 %year round new work only. We dig inside a building and outside we tunnel bore downtown and use heavy equipment in and out of buildings on jobs all i do is install conduit run pipe install gear pull wire terminate get power on. Ive seen every job i do with locates that are no good the city doesnt know were there old utilitys are no one can help us basically
were on our own .

To me if iam going to dig that tape is the most important thing in this world as my jobs on the line plus my crews life. Its gets real costly when Florida power or AT&T needs to reconnect the city when someone cuts it off and half of downtown is a black out not to add local business law suits on top of that .
We use magnetic tape when we install it power is easy to locate but fiber sewers water and gas are not .SAVE A DOLLAR BUT SPEND 1 MILLION

Take care be safe install the tape !