What a waste

[Volta]

I think 334.15(B) would be my only complaint. Seems that the NM is exposed, and passing through a floor. Cabinet bottom, perhaps, but the upper side of a horizontal surface likely to have objects stored or slid, it's a floor to me.

Sections 210.4(B) and 210.7(B) keep me from sharing neutrals and devices as much these days. No big deal here to have them both off if working on one, I suppose, but I just don't share like I used to.

I try to play well with others, though . . .

 

[tonyou812]

What does an insta hot have to do with anything. Wouldn't you run another circuit for it?

Maybe we should run a range receptacle in there. You just never know.

For the job at hand two twenty amp circuits is a waste in my view. The customer paid for more than was necessary.

No need no get worked up about it.

Who's getting worked up.....? were just talking shop dude. As far as running 14/2 to a kitchen appliance is sort of like running a 1/2" emt for a commercial or industrial application. Sure you can get your job done but what about future additions? Theres nothing wrong with that but ..... sort of on the "cheapo" side. Thats all im saying. How much more does the extra 12/2 cost in comparasin to your 14/3 ....?

 

[480sparky]

It's not under the sink.

You don't run 4/0 under the sink for future loads? :grin:

 

[LarryFine]

Havent you ever had to add a insta hot or some other appliance and you find a 14/2 feeding a 10.5 amp dishwasher and an 8 amp.

That would be a stretch, but I wouldn't hesitate to place them both on a 12/2.

Plus last time I checked a roll of 14/3 cost more than a roll of 12/2.

To be fair, you should compare a roll of 14/3 to two rolls of 12/2.

.........whhhhhhhyyyy do so many guys do just the min?????????????????

On the other hand, how often does anyone foresee ever needing three 20a circuits under the sink?

How much more does the other 12/2 really cost you? Plus its not really a factor if you are charging for the 12/2's.

If. We'd have to explain why two appliances require three circuits, unless you're selling them on the insta-hot now.

I still think two 20a circuits is plenty for the three, with whichever appliance has the greatest load on one circuit, and the other two on the second.

 

[Fulthrotl]

This situation can be judged fair and square. If the electrician absolutely, positively wanted to provide 2-20 amp dedicated under the sink, which is fine and his prerogative, the smarter way to achieve this is with one 12/3 cable and a single box with a split wired duplex receptacle. Less time, less material, less effort.

and it was friday, and he ran short of 12/3, and didn't want to spend an
hour fetching more.....
i've ran out of a flavor of #12 thhn, and pulled #10 instead. shoot me.

if the difference between 80' of 12/3 and 160' of 12/2 is the difference
between success and failure for me, i've got way more problems than
being inefficient.

 

[LarryFine]

and it was friday, and he ran short of 12/3, and didn't want to spend an
hour fetching more.....
i've ran out of a flavor of #12 thhn, and pulled #10 instead. shoot me.

Did you pull a #10 EGC, too?

if the difference between 80' of 12/3 and 160' of 12/2 is the difference
between success and failure for me, i've got way more problems than
being inefficient.

Of course, our criticisms presume freedom of choice.

 

[peter d]

and it was friday, and he ran short of 12/3, and didn't want to spend an hour fetching more.....

Perhaps, but I doubt it. I've worked with more than a few electricians who are afraid or refuse to use multiwire branch circuits to make me suspect otherwise.

 

[peter d]

How much more does the extra 12/2 cost in comparasin to your 14/3 ....?

How much does the extra labor cost to run and terminate two cables versus one is what I care about.

Furthermore, two runs of 12 or 14 versus one 3-wire cable is always more expensive. Using
current HD prices on romex:

14/2 - $23.75 x2 = 47.50
14/3 - $39.98

12/2 - $36.20 x2 = 72.40
12/3 - $66.00

 

[steelersman]

It's not under the sink.

right. your brilliant. much more chance for damage to occur to wires under a sink than on the exterior of a house. absolutely brilliant.

oh that's right, you're from MD. You get a pass.

 

[steelersman]

I think 334.15(B) would be my only complaint. Seems that the NM is exposed, and passing through a floor. Cabinet bottom, perhaps, but the upper side of a horizontal surface likely to have objects stored or slid, it's a floor to me.

Sections 210.4(B) and 210.7(B) keep me from sharing neutrals and devices as much these days. No big deal here to have them both off if working on one, I suppose, but I just don't share like I used to.

I try to play well with others, though . . .

doesn't matter if they pass through a floor. romex wires pass through the floor all the time. how else do you wire a house? In free air? besides, the bottom of a cabinet isn't a floor.

 

[Oakey]

I failed inspection for running a 14/3 to one split duplex rec under the sink. The inspector said "No more than 15 amps on a yoke", had to install 2 singles or no go.

 

[bradleyelectric]

You don't run 4/0 under the sink for future loads? :grin:

The last time I did the inspector make me put it in rigid metal for physical protection and the plumber got mad because the HO wanted to know why my work under the sink was heavier duty than his. I had to stop.

 

[bradleyelectric]

doesn't matter if they pass through a floor. romex wires pass through the floor all the time. how else do you wire a house? In free air? besides, the bottom of a cabinet isn't a floor.

Under the cabinet is a floor. Oh wait, steelers fan. You probably didn't know that. I believe the poster was assuming the panel was in a floor below the kitchen which makes it easy to drill through the floor to access the area and run the wires between floor joists running the wires towards the service panel. Maybe you should stick with pointing out spelling errors.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I failed inspection for running a 14/3 to one split duplex rec under the sink. The inspector said "No more than 15 amps on a yoke", had to install 2 singles or no go.

I have read many things inspectors make people do without anything to back it up. Please next time ask the inspector what the difference is between a duplex that is split and 2 single receptacles.

 

[steelersman]

Under the cabinet is a floor. Oh wait, steelers fan. You probably didn't know that. I believe the poster was assuming the panel was in a floor below the kitchen which makes it easy to drill through the floor to access the area and run the wires between floor joists running the wires towards the service panel. Maybe you should stick with pointing out spelling errors.

Hmm. So you don't run any wires through the floor? Interesting. So you don't think that the wires go directly to the switch for the disposal? Not that it matters. I'm still wondering how to wire a house or anything for that matter without running any wires through a floor. Besides, where does it say in the code that this isn't allowed? You should stick to tractor pulls.

I'm glad you're not an inspector. I'd feel sorry for anyone having you inspect their work and trying to enforce your OWN codes.

 

[nakulak]

I have read many things inspectors make people do without anything to back it up. Please next time ask the inspector what the difference is between a duplex that is split and 2 single receptacles.

It does suck when an inspector misinterprets the code. (Of course, it should be noted that I'm sure electricians benefit just as much from this as they are penalized for it - you just never hear about the other half of the time when the inspector missed something that should have been fixed, only the whining about the things that they caught that weren't right) After thinking about it, though, It occurred to me that if electricians were more proactive towards the inspectors becoming better trained, it would impart a whole new positive dynamic towards contractor/inspector relations. For instance, suppose you hooked up with a local head inspector who just happened to be a member of one of these national organizations like IAEI. So an inspector comes to the job and tells you some ridiculous thing to fix, which you know is wrong, instead of jumping up and down, you just shake your head like he just flunked a test, pull out a card from one of these other cats, and say, "hey, joe, this organization does a great job training inspectors, you might be able to really get ahead - give them a call and see what they have to offer. So and so at (some other county) is a chief inspecto and belongs to this org and he's a great guy. Oh, by the way, just as a favor, when you talk to him, do me a favor and talk with him about this (bs red tag you just gave me) and let me know what he says ?"

-just an idea ?
(fwiw, the inspectors in my neck of the woods are usually pretty good. Thing is, I always hit them with a list of questions when the first hit the job of anything they (or I) could possibly disagree on, so I don't get caught with my hand in the grinder. That in and of itself goes a long way to establishing a working relationship and no red stickers.)

 

[LarryFine]

I failed inspection for running a 14/3 to one split duplex rec under the sink. The inspector said "No more than 15 amps on a yoke", had to install 2 singles or no go.

And, of course, he showed you the NEC article that required that before you did it, right?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

"334.15
(B)Protection from Physical Damage.
...Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conducit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit, or other approved means extending at least (6 in.) above the floor."


When one drills through plates and installs cables "within" the walls, that is not coming up through a floor.
If one is to install the cable through the floor, such as an area where the dishwasher may be located or under a sink, then following 334.15(B) will be required.

 

[Flex]

"334.15
(B)Protection from Physical Damage.
...Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conducit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit, or other approved means extending at least (6 in.) above the floor."


When one drills through plates and installs cables "within" the walls, that is not coming up through a floor.
If one is to install the cable through the floor, such as an area where the dishwasher may be located or under a sink, then following 334.15(B) will be required.

That makes sense.

 

[iaov]

This has got to be one of the sillier threads I've ever read here. No one knows the history of this install. These circuits may have been installed at completely different times! And who knows what the instructions may have been. A dozen electricians have a dozen ideas on how to do something!Huh!! The only thing I can say for sure is it appears to be a neat,safe, (I don't think the Romex is in harms way)user friendly install.