What a waste

[tonyou812]

That would be a stretch, but I wouldn't hesitate to place them both on a 12/2.

To be fair, you should compare a roll of 14/3 to two rolls of 12/2.

On the other hand, how often does anyone foresee ever needing three 20a circuits under the sink?

If. We'd have to explain why two appliances require three circuits, unless you're selling them on the insta-hot now.

I still think two 20a circuits is plenty for the three, with whichever appliance has the greatest load on one circuit, and the other two on the second.

who said anything about three 20's. The OP stated "what a waste you could have run 14/3 for both. I personally dont run 14 for kitchen stuff. In my opinion that is doing code minumum. Sure you can probably get both appliances to work on 14 wire but that doesnt leave much room for any future stuff.

And like I said If your the kind of person that will go through the trouble of snaking in a wire (and for what its worth I am going under the assumption that it is a pita) why not leave some room for future stuff? ....Come on dude if 50 bucks is going to break your profit margin.............lol..and beileve me the customers are paying for the 12 wire, its not comming out of my pocket...ahhhh forget it who cares anyway. I know what works for me. I always work under the assumption that the customer will use me again at a later date.

I think it basically boils down to "are you a code minimum guy". and Im pretty sure there was a thread already for this a few weeks ago.

And you see this not only in electrical work but in all the trades.

 

[tonyou812]

I failed inspection for running a 14/3 to one split duplex rec under the sink. The inspector said "No more than 15 amps on a yoke", had to install 2 singles or no go.

we must have had the same inspector. Ive failed for this too and passed in other municipalities. Got love it though.

 

[George Stolz]

I can say without hesitation that was installed by an ignoramus.

I guess I am an ignoramus. I usually configure my circuitry under the sink the same way.

How much does the extra labor cost to run and terminate two cables versus one is what I care about.

If I own two stud reelers, then the extra labor cost is minimal.

Furthermore, two runs of 12 or 14 versus one 3-wire cable is always more expensive. Using
current HD prices on romex:

14/2 - $23.75 x2 = 47.50
14/3 - $39.98

12/2 - $36.20 x2 = 72.40
12/3 - $66.00

Goodness gracious! The cost to run two 12/2 cables instead of a 12/3 is $6.40 a roll?!? How will I be able to overcome such a drastic oversight?

Much ado over nothing. Aside from the protection issues, there isn't a problem in the picture, IMO.

 

[tonyou812]

Don't get me wrong fellas, I dont make it a habit of oversizing everything in a home but in this particular situation I dont see it as a waste. Maybe its the chef in me or all the past experiences in resi, but to me it makes perfect sense.

you know I had a buddy once that wired two side by side baths, in this very large home (that was to be for two "teenage" girls) on one 20 amp circuit. And I remember telling him (at the time I was an apprentice) do you think that is a good idea? (The panel was on the opposite side of the home so snaking one in later was going to be a real pain in the butt.)

Two high school girls getting ready can easily be using two blow dryers at the same time or curling irons or what ever else girls. And needless to say a few weeks after the project was done my boss got a call from the HO that the breaker for the GFCI's kept tripping. My boss explained to him the code and why its happening and that the breaker was doing its job and yadda yadda yadda, but the HO really didnt give a crap as to why he just wanted his daughters to stop complaining about it. And the HO had a lot and I mean a lot of money so the price for the extra circuit really wouldn't have been an issue.

So a few years went by and I happened to drive by the home and saw another EC van in the driveway installing what seemed to be miles of landscape lighting. And I kind of chuckled that my old boss wasn't the guy doing it.

You know guys sometimes it doesn't take much for people to get turned off to you or your company.
It probably wasn't just the bathrooms that turned him off to my boss but I'm sure it didnt help. I mean what would you think if you just spent about 100,000 grand for electrical work and your breaker keeps tripping....?

Sometimes you cant just look at a job like a cookie cutter. Some jobs take a little foresight. And this in my opinion is what separates the decent companies from the great ones.

Oh and for what its worth this isn't a made up story like some people in here like to do to suit the topic or so they can make their point.

 

[steelersman]

Oh and for what its worth this isnt a made up story like some people in here like to do to suit the topic or so they can make their point.

Hahaha. That's funny. I've often thought the same thing.

 

[tonyou812]

Hahaha. That's funny. I've often thought the same thing.

Im sure some of you can guess as to who I mean.....

 

[steelersman]

"334.15
(B)Protection from Physical Damage.
...Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conducit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit, or other approved means extending at least (6 in.) above the floor."


When one drills through plates and installs cables "within" the walls, that is not coming up through a floor.
If one is to install the cable through the floor, such as an area where the dishwasher may be located or under a sink, then following 334.15(B) will be required.

I would take that to mean through a floor in the middle of a room or where it's exposed. Around here the inspectors don't make us sleeve the romex coming up through the floor directly under the dishwasher. And how would you sleeve it in rigid above 6 inches through the floor if it's directly under the dishwasher? You wouldn't be able to.

now for island plugs then yes we sleeve them inside the cabinet.

 

[tonyou812]

Has anyone mentioned that there are no staples or straps on the romex?

 

[peter d]

I guess I am an ignoramus. I usually configure my circuitry under the sink the same way.

I think you missed my point. This would have been a perfect place to use a MWBC. Or perhaps you didn't miss my point. Are you saying you don't take advantage of using MWBC's? :-? At any rate, perhaps "ignoramus" was too strong, but I can't for the life of me understand the logic behind the setup in Scott's picture. And I agree with Scott that 2-20 amp circuits is a waste. Just my opinion though.

Goodness gracious! The cost to run two 12/2 cables instead of a 12/3 is $6.40 a roll?!? How will I be able to overcome such a drastic oversight?

You say you're about to go into business, no? $6.40 here, $5 there...it all starts adding up, especially when you're the one now paying the bill for the material.

 

[tonyou812]

I think you missed my point. This would have been a perfect place to use a MWBC. Or perhaps you didn't miss my point. Are you saying you don't take advantage of using MWBC's? :-? At any rate, perhaps "ignoramus" was too strong, but I can't for the life of me understand the logic behind the setup in Scott's picture. And I agree with Scott that 2-20 amp circuits is a waste. Just my opinion though.

customer. you would be very surprised as to what many people will find to expensive. And when it comes to kitchen equipment, using 14/2 is a JV (junior varsity) move even if it saves you a few bucks.
Besides all that, we all going on the "gumption that we are using the same price for two different installs. And who ever assumed that....You know what the real funny thing is here? we have no info on what is getting connected to these outlets but we are all so sure that its over kill.
Peter I dont know about you but I like to make it a habit to have the customer pay for what is being installed. If i install 2 12/2's, guess what? thats what the HO is paying for.That being said I also dont always work with the thought of how can I do this as cheaply as possible for the ?

 

[tonyou812]

im not really sure what happend to my post (above) it got all chopped up. ...weird

 

[peter d]

Peter I dont know about you but I like to make it a habit to have the customer pay for what is being installed.

It makes no difference to me how many 20 amp circuits you want to run under the sink. Heck, if you're getting paid to run 5 circuits to under the sink, great! Do I think it's a waste? Yes, I agree with Scott on that. But if running 2-20 amp circuits to under the sink makes you all warm and fuzzy, who am I to argue.

My main point, which I will emphasize again, is that if the electrician wanted to run 2 circuits, running a MWBC (12/3) is a more efficient way to accomplish that what we see in the picture. That's all I'm trying to point out.

 

[tonyou812]

I just reread my post and i really didnt mean to sound like a smarty pants.
But If a customer asked me to wire two major appliances i would run a 12/3 and charge accordingly.
Look at another scenario: if you had to wire a laundry room would you just run a 12/2 and be done...? What do you think is going to happen when the HO is using the washer,gas dryer and a iron at the same time? are you going to tell me that this isnt possible? or that you meet your code requirement and you did your job?
How many office renos have you done that many times on the print they have 2,3,4, or maybe even just five outlets on a circut? do you say what a waste....? what are they going to plug in a computer, a light, maybe a clock ....? its all how you look at it I guess.

 

[ohm]

It makes no difference to me how many 20 amp circuits you want to run under the sink. Heck, if you're getting paid to run 5 circuits to under the sink, great! Do I think it's a waste? Yes, I agree with Scott on that. But if running 2-20 amp circuits to under the sink makes you all warm and fuzzy, who am I to argue.

My main point, which I will emphasize again, is that if the electrician wanted to run 2 circuits, running a MWBC (12/3) is a more efficient way to accomplish that what we see in the picture. That's all I'm trying to point out.

I always run a MWBC, if permitted by Code. They save material, labor and operating costs. Sure, you've got to be careful not to lift the neutral under load but it's worth it. AFCI's have pretty well limited how many we can run but I never pass up a chance.

And, I never use #14. Especially with AFCI's.

 

[steelersman]

I always run a MWBC, if permitted by Code.

what do mean if permitted? When are they not?

AFCI's have pretty well limited how many we can run but I never pass up a chance.

You can't put MWBC's on AFCI protection?

And, I never use #14. Especially with AFCI's

So AFCI's don't like #14? This is new to me. I wonder why they don't specify on the instructions : "not to be installed on 15 amp circuits" or "will not work on 15 amp circuits"

you renegade you.

 

[Rockyd]

No MWBC in C1D1 (501.4) area either.

 

[ohm]

what do mean if permitted? When are they not?



You can't put MWBC's on AFCI protection?




So AFCI's don't like #14? This is new to me. I wonder why they don't specify on the instructions : "not to be installed on 15 amp circuits" or "will not work on 15 amp circuits"

you renegade you.

AFCI breakers won't work on MWBC's...since there are only a few places left in resi work that we don't need an AFCI.

Because our county limits us to: (12) outlets on a 20A ckt and (10) on a 15A ckt the following cost of AFCI's per ckt. are:

If I spend $40 for a 20A ckt it works out to 40/12= $3.33/outlet

If I spend $40 for a 15A ckt it works out to 40/10= $4.00/outlet

So, between labor and material and available space in a typ. 42 space panel #14 just ain't worth it.

Go Steelers!!

 

[steelersman]

AFCI breakers won't work on MWBC's...since there are only a few places left in resi work that we don't need an AFCI.

Because our county limits us to: (12) outlets on a 20A ckt and (10) on a 15A ckt the following cost of AFCI's per ckt. are:

If I spend $40 for a 20A ckt it works out to 40/12= $3.33/outlet

If I spend $40 for a 15A ckt it works out to 40/10= $4.00/outlet

So, between labor and material and available space in a typ. 42 space panel #14 just ain't worth it.

Go Steelers!!

I can't believe a county would limit the amount of recepts on a circuit. Crazy I say!!

GO STEELERS!!

 

[ohm]

I can't believe a county would limit the amount of recepts on a circuit. Crazy I say!!

GO STEELERS!!

Yea that's what everyone says but even w/o the 12/10 number the ratio still holds true and it still seems like #14 is a waste.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I would take that to mean through a floor in the middle of a room or where it's exposed. Around here the inspectors don't make us sleeve the romex coming up through the floor directly under the dishwasher. And how would you sleeve it in rigid above 6 inches through the floor if it's directly under the dishwasher? You wouldn't be able to.

now for island plugs then yes we sleeve them inside the cabinet.

If one cannot or does not want to comply with the protection from physical damage when installing a cable through the floor, than a relocation of the location of the cable is in order. I do not see any relief from this section in regards as to when and where one installs through the floor. I am usually surprised to see the cable through the floor under dishwashers. I would think that the logical location for the cable would be under the sink.

Has anyone mentioned that there are no staples or straps on the romex?

Yes, earlier