What code section do you find absolutely ridiculous?

[hornetd]

??? I don't have a 2014 yet.

??? I don't have a 2014 yet.

240.87 (2014)
700.8 (2014)
700.10(B)

517.41(E) (2014)*

* - This one takes the prize.

I take it it no longer reads

"Receptacle Identification. The cover plates for the
electrical receptacles or the electrical receptacles themselves
supplied from the emergency electrical system shall have a
distinctive color or marking so as to be readily identifiable."

 

[Pharon]

I take it it no longer reads

"Receptacle Identification. The cover plates for the
electrical receptacles or the electrical receptacles themselves
supplied from the emergency electrical system shall have a
distinctive color or marking so as to be readily identifiable."

It does, but this text was also added:

Nonlocking-type, 1 25-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles
shall have an illuminated face or an indicator light to indicate
that there is power to the receptacle.

Keep in mind, though, that this section only applies to nursing homes and limited care facilities -- not hospitals.

 

[arknack]

Grounded, Grounding & Neutral terms

Grounded, Grounding & Neutral terms

One of my pet peeves is the use of the terms grounded & grounding conductors. I see these terms get confused with each other often. Why did they not stick to the word neutral? If you look back though the threads neutral is used. Not grounded conductor. Neutral could have been defined as a grounded conductor.

 

[kwired]

One of my pet peeves is the use of the terms grounded & grounding conductors. I see these terms get confused with each other often. Why did they not stick to the word neutral? If you look back though the threads neutral is used. Not grounded conductor. Neutral could have been defined as a grounded conductor.

Because not every grounded conductor is also a "neutral" conductor. Take a two wire single phase source and ground one side - which one is "neutral"? Neither is, but one of them is grounded. The grounded phase conductor of a corner grounded delta system is also a "grounded conductor" but is not a "neutral".

 

[oldude]

DOUBLE LUGGING

DOUBLE LUGGING

Here's one I find kind of silly but I wouldn't call ridiculous because I've seen some cases where it was a really crappy connection. Some breaker lugs seemed to be designed for two conductors, but an inspector would bust you under rules within Art. 110. I think that in some cases double lugging should be accepted. Lets say you have two sections of one circuit with the panel in the middle, like a 20a recept. circuit. You can't double lug two #12's on one breaker, but if you bring one off the breaker, you can wirenut it to the other two and its ok. I think the better connection would be the two wires mechanically connected on the breaker lug. oldude

 

[hornetd]

Connection creep is the problem there

Connection creep is the problem there

Here's one I find kind of silly but I wouldn't call ridiculous because I've seen some cases where it was a really crappy connection. Some breaker lugs seemed to be designed for two conductors, but an inspector would bust you under rules within Art. 110. I think that in some cases double lugging should be accepted. Lets say you have two sections of one circuit with the panel in the middle, like a 20a recept. circuit. You can't double lug two #12's on one breaker, but if you bring one off the breaker, you can wirenut it to the other two and its ok. I think the better connection would be the two wires mechanically connected on the breaker lug. oldude

If you have two conductors under one lug the quality of the connection cannot be assured. Each conductor will expand and contract as it is loaded and unloaded. It is very unlikely that they will expand and contract at the same time and to the same degree. The lug itself has to be designed to withstand the effect or the connection will eventually fail. The connections that are designed to withstand those stresses are the ones with separate apertures for each conductor and or a sems pressure washer under the screw head.

 

[kwired]

Here's one I find kind of silly but I wouldn't call ridiculous because I've seen some cases where it was a really crappy connection. Some breaker lugs seemed to be designed for two conductors, but an inspector would bust you under rules within Art. 110. I think that in some cases double lugging should be accepted. Lets say you have two sections of one circuit with the panel in the middle, like a 20a recept. circuit. You can't double lug two #12's on one breaker, but if you bring one off the breaker, you can wirenut it to the other two and its ok. I think the better connection would be the two wires mechanically connected on the breaker lug. oldude

The ones with a pressure plate style connection (All that comes to my mind in the "miniature" style breakers is 30 amp and less Square D, both QO and Homeline) are generally rated for two conductors. Set screw style lugs are usually only rated for single conductors.

 

[darekelec]

The ones with a pressure plate style connection (All that comes to my mind in the "miniature" style breakers is 30 amp and less Square D, both QO and Homeline) are generally rated for two conductors. Set screw style lugs are usually only rated for single conductors.

It's funny. Today I tried to land second conductor on afci breaker SqD 20A hom with pressure plate but it had entry for only 1 conductor. Neutral terminal had completaly exposed pressure plate.

 

[arknack]

Neutral conductor

Neutral conductor

Because not every grounded conductor is also a "neutral" conductor. Take a two wire single phase source and ground one side - which one is "neutral"? Neither is, but one of them is grounded. The grounded phase conductor of a corner grounded delta system is also a "grounded conductor" but is not a "neutral".

I guess I don't understand or am old school. I have always known that the term neutral was the grounded conductor. As I stated neutral is a term used frequently in this thread and the BBs. Google term and it come up as grounded conductor. I know, Google is not a good resource. I would bet you could ask any electrician what is neutral on a signal phase system and they would tell you. Ask them about grounded conductor and they would have to think about it.

 

[iwire]

I guess I don't understand or am old school. I have always known that the term neutral was the grounded conductor. As I stated neutral is a term used frequently in this thread and the BBs. Google term and it come up as grounded conductor. I know, Google is not a good resource. I would bet you could ask any electrician what is neutral on a signal phase system and they would tell you. Ask them about grounded conductor and they would have to think about it.

In general discussion that is fine but kwired is correct there are many times when the white grounded conductor is NOT a neutral.

For instance the grounded conductor of a corner grounded delta supply is never a neutral.

 

[Strathead]

I guess I don't understand or am old school. I have always known that the term neutral was the grounded conductor. As I stated neutral is a term used frequently in this thread and the BBs. Google term and it come up as grounded conductor. I know, Google is not a good resource. I would bet you could ask any electrician what is neutral on a signal phase system and they would tell you. Ask them about grounded conductor and they would have to think about it.

Think about semantics. A neutral an unbiased conductor between multiple other conductors. A grounded conductor is a conductor intentionally connected to ground. Some have suggested we get more like the Brits and call the grounding conductor "earth" This is not bad since that is reasonably accurate.

So, a neutral will still be a neutral even if it is not connected to ground. And a grounded conductor that grounds the end of a coil for safety reasons is a ground conductor, but it is not a neutral. Think of a 24 volt control transformer in a motor controller. One leg is usually grounded. We then refer to that wire as the "common" and it generally resides on the right side of a ladder diagram. It is not a neutral though.

Hope this helps.

 

[kwired]

I guess I don't understand or am old school. I have always known that the term neutral was the grounded conductor. As I stated neutral is a term used frequently in this thread and the BBs. Google term and it come up as grounded conductor. I know, Google is not a good resource. I would bet you could ask any electrician what is neutral on a signal phase system and they would tell you. Ask them about grounded conductor and they would have to think about it.

Or never understood correctly. These definitions have maybe had a little tweaking in the NEC but have remained fairly consistent over the years.

From art 100 definitions:

Grounded Conductor. A system or circuit conductor that
is intentionally grounded.

Neutral Conductor. The conductor connected to the neutral
point of a system that is intended to carry current under
normal conditions.


Neutral Point. The common point on a wye-connection in
a polyphase system or midpoint on a single-phase, 3-wire
system, or midpoint of a single-phase portion of a 3-phase
delta system, or a midpoint of a 3-wire, direct-current system.

Informational Note: At the neutral point of the system, the
vectorial sum of the nominal voltages from all other phases
within the system that utilize the neutral, with respect to the
neutral point, is zero potential.

Most cases a neutral conductor is required to be grounded, but not all grounded conductors are always a "neutral conductor" according to these definitions.

Examples I already have given include a two wire source - such as a 120 volt supply stepped down from a higher voltage for any reason. There is no conductor in this system that meets the definition of "neutral conductor", we can ground either conductor and have a "grounded conductor" though. Same applies to a corner grounded delta system. There is no point in that system that meets the definition of "neutral conductor". You can ground any conductor of that system though and have a "grounded conductor" A high impedance grounded system also complicates the definitions some.

 

[iwire]

That relatively new definition of neutral means there is a neutral in a two wire 120 circuit.

 

[kwired]

That relatively new definition of neutral means there is a neutral in a two wire 120 circuit.

I'm not seeing the two wire system situation in there.

I think they did some tweaking or even added the "neutral point" definition in more recent edition of NEC, one of the biggest changes that made was to include the grounded conductor of a high leg delta system into what is considered a neutral conductor. Many called this conductor a neutral before that but NEC was not worded to consider that particular situation as a "neutral conductor".

 

[mwm1752]

The limited use for TC cable - more robust than NM yet is not approved for simple Lovolt applications outside a cable tray or exterior of a building -- Code change submitted

 

[jim dungar]

That relatively new definition of neutral means there is a neutral in a two wire 120 circuit.

Only if that 120V 2-wire circuit originates from a system that has a neutral. It does not apply to the 2-wire secondary of an SDS per Kwired's example.

 

[SMHarman]

Think about semantics. A neutral an unbiased conductor between multiple other conductors. A grounded conductor is a conductor intentionally connected to ground. Some have suggested we get more like the Brits and call the grounding conductor "earth" This is not bad since that is reasonably accurate.

2.5mm twin and earth. We colour it green and yellow to really make it clear.
We also run ring power circuits and separate power and lightning 1.5mm T&E and have to ground all the metal plumbing pipes.

But then again with 240/480 distribution a residence usually only gets a single phase. The next property in the street getting the other phase and so on.


Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk

 

[iwire]

I'm not seeing the two wire system situation in there.

Only if that 120V 2-wire circuit originates from a system that has a neutral. It does not apply to the 2-wire secondary of an SDS per Kwired's example.

Yes, I agree, I did not read carefully enough. I had assumed his 'two wire 120 volt circuit' was a typical household branch circuit not a 120 volt transformer.

In my corner of this industry I almost never deal with a 120 volt circuit that comes from a straight 120 supply.


I would bet heavily that arknack was thinking of a typical branch circuit as well.

 

[kwired]

I would bet heavily that arknack was thinking of a typical branch circuit as well.

I would bet the same way.

But this was an attempt to clarify a question brought up by him about why NEC doesn't call all grounded conductors "neutral".

Chances are most of his experience the grounded conductor was also a "neutral conductor"

I was trying to point out that not all grounded conductors are always a neutral conductor and why.

 

[jim dungar]

In my corner of this industry I almost never deal with ...

This is a typical human (?) response. We tend to think first of things based only our our experience. That is one good thing about this type of forum, we learn about things we hadn't even heard of.