What would you do?

[jwjrw]

JR are you not worried about the #12 AL wire??????????
Laast time I checked it's "is" " was " and always only good for 15 amps for receptacle loads.

Any of you old timers chime in if I was taught incorrectly!

Yes I said in my earlier post if I touched the circuit( somehow I missed the burnt breaker part) then I would put what was nec a 15amp breaker as you did. But I would still want to know what is actually on the circuit.

 

[480sparky]

...... I would get a signature on this showing that the owner was made aware of the situation. ...........

This is what I use. Modify as needed.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Why would you think you could get someone to sign such a document!
If I were that Manager I would never sign such a thing. And if you presented such a document I would never see your company at this place ever again.

 

[Electbob]

my opinion, you are taking the right stand, if something should happen...ie fire etc. you have a liability issue.

 

[480sparky]

Why would you think you could get someone to sign such a document!
If I were that Manager I would never sign such a thing. And if you presented such a document I would never see your company at this place ever again.

I'm not gonna hold a gun to someone's head and force them to sign it. But it certainly makes my side of the story perfectly clear. If someone refuses to sign it, I simply make note of that and file the form away.

And if you refuse to properly attend an obvious unsafe condition, I don't want to work for you anyway.

 

[Sierrasparky]

JWJR

I'm a bit confused. How does knowing the amp draw of a kitchen appliance circuit wired in #12 aluminum wire tell you anything of purpose?

If there is no significant amp either the appliances are off. If there is an overload condition what is the difference in the outcome.

In either case a kitchen appliance circuit needs to be 20 amp. And as far as I was taught and the code book supports under no case shall #12 AL have a overcurrent protection greater than 15 amps.........

So please tell what am I missing. Why do I need to drag my sorry xxx to the truck and get the amp meter?

Please exuse the sarcasim.

Sparksssssssssss

 

[Sierrasparky]

I'm not gonna hold a gun to someone's head and force them to sign it. But it certainly makes my side of the story perfectly clear. If someone refuses to sign it, I simply make note of that and file the form away.

And if you refuse to properly attend an obvious unsafe condition, I don't want to work for you anyway.

Placing such a document in ones face is not going to get you more work. It is not being very diplomatic. There must be a softer way to protect oneself!

 

[fisherelectric]

If the building owner refuses to acknowledge the problem you don't want to work for him. Aluminum wire is one strike, overfused circuits is 2 strikes, refuses to take the problem seriously is teh third strike. I wouldn't go back to that building under those circumstances.

 

[satcom]

Placing such a document in ones face is not going to get you more work. It is not being very diplomatic. There must be a softer way to protect oneself!

Yes there is, we simply send them a letter certified mail with return receipt, and note the hazzard we found and they are notified. After that the ball is in their court.

 

[satcom]

If the building owner refuses to acknowledge the problem you don't want to work for him. Aluminum wire is one strike, overfused circuits is 2 strikes, refuses to take the problem seriously is teh third strike. I wouldn't go back to that building under those circumstances.

I agree not the kind of customer you want or need

 

[480sparky]

Placing such a document in ones face is not going to get you more work. It is not being very diplomatic. There must be a softer way to protect oneself!

I'm sorry you have this extremely erroneous vision of how I operate. Apparantly you feel I run around like Chicken Little at the slightest violation.

I don't open a panel, see #12 aluminum on a 20 a breaker, then turn around and demand someone sign the form while I chamber a round.

I explain to the best of my abilities the problems I see to the owner (or whoever), and what the hazards are. If they simply flat-out refuse to fix it, there's not much I can do about it. If it's something simple, like a broken receptacle, no, I'm not even going to bother with the form.

But if I see some #14s tapped under the main lugs feeding the electic range, then yes, I will do my best to get them to correct the situation. If they refuse, I calmly (take note of that word, please!) expain that I am going to request (again, take note of that word as well!) they sign the form for my own protection.... I don't want them suing me after their house burns down and claiming I didn't inform them of the safety hazard.

If they refuse, then I simply (please, again, note that word) note such on the form and thank them (again, another 'soft' word!) and leave.


As for getting more work, why on earth do you think I would want such a cheapskate as a customer?

 

[jwjrw]

JWJR

I'm a bit confused. How does knowing the amp draw of a kitchen appliance circuit wired in #12 aluminum wire tell you anything of purpose?

If there is no significant amp either the appliances are off. If there is an overload condition what is the difference in the outcome.

In either case a kitchen appliance circuit needs to be 20 amp. And as far as I was taught and the code book supports under no case shall #12 AL have a overcurrent protection greater than 15 amps.........

So please tell what am I missing. Why do I need to drag my sorry xxx to the truck and get the amp meter?

Please exuse the sarcasim.

Sparksssssssssss

Ok I was taught if you have a breaker burnt it could be loose in panel, overloaded, or something crazy could happen also.
So....... I want to know how much things are actually pulling.
Was it overloaded, did the microwave cause it......
I would want my electrician to say ok the microwave is pulling to much that caused the problem or it was a weak breaker I have to put it on a 15 now it may kick now.....
But some breakers will hold at almost 100% of amp rating and I want to know what is on that circuit. It burnt a breaker! I want that info on my invoice to cover my a**.
Just my thinking on it. I stopped working for a complex for something similar.

 

[Sierrasparky]

If the building owner refuses to acknowledge the problem you don't want to work for him. Aluminum wire is one strike, overfused circuits is 2 strikes, refuses to take the problem seriously is teh third strike. I wouldn't go back to that building under those circumstances.

I guess all of you out there have loads of great work these days. You can afford to piss of customers.Well I am not so sure I can. In the case here I still feel you must be diplomatic. Yes by all means tell the facts. Tell how unsafe. Make notes. I just don't think 3 strikes kinda talk is going to get more " safe work" from this customer or from any of his aquantences either. I would provide code section and other safety info. He might just call his prior electricain cuss him out and then Hire you to do the re-wire. Notices like 480 is just a path for immediate termination. I may feel like 480 but there must be a better way. Dimplomatic.

 

[jwjrw]

I guess all of you out there have loads of great work these days. You can afford to piss of customers.Well I am not so sure I can. In the case here I still feel you must be diplomatic. Yes by all means tell the facts. Tell how unsafe. Make notes. I just don't think 3 strikes kinda talk is going to get more " safe work" from this customer or from any of his aquantences either. I would provide code section and other safety info. He might just call his prior electricain cuss him out and then Hire you to do the re-wire. Notices like 480 is just a path for immediate termination. I may feel like 480 but there must be a better way. Dimplomatic.

Actually no..... Its the slowest in 38 years, has picked up some.
You did the right thing with the breaker, I would of wanted to know more about what exactly happend but thats me.

I dont make customer sign anything but I note things that I feel are safety issues on my invoice for my protection as well as a reminder to them that they have problems.

Your right you cant make them understand that just because its been ok like that for years its not necessarly safe. So you do what the NEC allows and that could piss him off. But very nicely tell him you do want his work and it was legal then but I cant do it now. Im a professional with my reputation to uphold. I hope you understand I have your best interest at heart....

 

[fisherelectric]

I guess all of you out there have loads of great work these days. You can afford to piss of customers.Well I am not so sure I can. In the case here I still feel you must be diplomatic. Yes by all means tell the facts. Tell how unsafe. Make notes. I just don't think 3 strikes kinda talk is going to get more " safe work" from this customer or from any of his aquantences either. I would provide code section and other safety info. He might just call his prior electricain cuss him out and then Hire you to do the re-wire. Notices like 480 is just a path for immediate termination. I may feel like 480 but there must be a better way. Dimplomatic.

I'm not saying you should jump in the guys face at all. I'm saying that after you diplomatically tell him the facts about the situation and he refuses to "acknowledge the problem" you have to walk. This is the point where you have to CYA and ask him to sign something that would absolve you of any liability down the road if a problem developes. He could turn around and try to blame you for any problems just because you were there. With a signed document showing you informed and he refused you're covered.
On the other hand if you explain the problem and then explain to him how you can make it go away, and he accepts that and is willing to pay to make the situation safe for everyone involved then you're good to go. It sounds like this place is going to have a lot more problems going forward and if he trusts you and is willing to pay to sleep well at night it could be a sweet deal for you. It all boils down to how you explain it and how he takes it.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Actually no..... Its the slowest in 38 years, has picked up some.
You did the right thing with the breaker, I would of wanted to know more about what exactly happend but thats me.

I dont make customer sign anything but I note things that I feel are safety issues on my invoice for my protection as well as a reminder to them that they have problems.

Your right you cant make them understand that just because its been ok like that for years its not necessarly safe. So you do what the NEC allows and that could piss him off. But very nicely tell him you do want his work and it was legal then but I cant do it now. Im a professional with my reputation to uphold. I hope you understand I have your best interest at heart....

By the way when was it ever legal to use # 12 AL for receptacle or outlets in a dwelling.

 

[jwjrw]

By the way when was it ever legal to use # 12 AL for receptacle or outlets in a dwelling.

My guess is in the late 60's and early 70's because its in houses here fused at 15 amps.
Better question when did it stop being legal?

 

[jwjrw]

My guess is in the late 60's and early 70's because its in houses here fused at 15 amps.
Better question when did it stop being legal?

Where you at 480? I know you know the answer.

 

[Sierrasparky]

My apologies to all in my last post I said "By the way when was it ever legal to use # 12 AL for receptacle or outlets in a dwelling.

I thought we were all on the same page I forgot to clarify #12 AL on a 20 amp OCPD. Now that that is cleared up I don't believe it was ever legitimate to place convenience outlets in that manner on a 20 amp breaker.

 

[jwjrw]

My apologies to all in my last post I said "By the way when was it ever legal to use # 12 AL for receptacle or outlets in a dwelling.

I thought we were all on the same page I forgot to clarify #12 AL on a 20 amp OCPD. Now that that is cleared up I don't believe it was ever legitimate to place convenience outlets in that manner on a 20 amp breaker.

Oh no I agreed from the start that it was overfused and I would install the correct breaker. But I want to know what was going on with it thats all.