Wiring in a new home

[brantmacga]

I would give a quote as if all the electrical upgrades were on the plans. Then if accepted, go ahead and install all the upgrades right along with all the rest of the stuff that's required by Code!

Nah you wouldn’t be able to do that. You also wouldn’t get the work if pricing it as such.

There is a need in the market for starter homes in my area. Most of the homes being built here, and existing inventory for sale are not considered “starter homes.” I live in a neighborhood considered to be for young families and professionals, and houses here were in the $250k-$400k range, occasionally $600k. The homes for sale here now are listing between $650k-$1.3M. All of the spec homes in my town that were selling for $230k are now starting at $350k.

Recessed lighting, additional fixtures, receps etc. are not a necessity. They are luxuries.

Now we have higher interest rates to deal with. We need less expensive homes. And that’s not just a problem in my area it’s nationwide. The house we sold and moved from in 2020 started out as a pretty basic home and we remodeled (new flooring, paint, better hvac), added a lot of lighting and smart home tech, replaced all the fixtures with nicer stuff over time. That’s the sort of thing people can pay cash to do over time once they’re in the house.


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[jimport]

Next thing you know they won't require 20amp outlets in the bathroom or kitchen either...

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20 amp outlets are not required., just 20 amp circuits.

 

[Fred B]

20 amp outlets are not required., just 20 amp circuits.

The receptacles have to be able to handle 20A on a 20A circuit. Didn't use to be an issue but now the big box are selling in the contractor packs a receptacle listed strickly 15A not like it use to be 15A or 20A. Had an inspector call that one out. Be careful.

 

[4x4dually]

Dad had a template with “furniture” on it and he’d sit down with the buyer and draw things. When both my parents were building houses full-time-ish, Mom would do a wall-thru with She Who Must Be Obeyed and make sure she liked where things were going to be, then they‘d get their EC in to do it.

Yup. Spend several weeks going back and forth with the wife putting furniture and things in the house we are designing currently for ourselves. I'm with you, I want to see EVERYTHING on paper. This is a mid-stride screen shot, not a completed one, so don't scrutinize it much.

Once we got the 2D layout where we wanted it then we provided it to the builder and he modeled it in Chief Architect. We now have a 3D rendering of it as well which has most of the electrical in it. Since I'm going to wire it I told him not to spend much time making it 100% showing all devices.

 

[4-20mA]

The receptacles have to be able to handle 20A on a 20A circuit. Didn't use to be an issue but now the big box are selling in the contractor packs a receptacle listed strickly 15A not like it use to be 15A or 20A. Had an inspector call that one out. Be careful.

Go easy on him. He thought he was having a 'gotcha' moment, lol. Bet he's a blast at parties

 

[ramsy]

The receptacles have to be able to handle 20A on a 20A circuit. Didn't use to be an issue but now the big box are selling in the contractor packs a receptacle listed strickly 15A not like it use to be 15A or 20A. Had an inspector call that one out. Be careful.

90.4 allows AHJ to interpret code in their jurisdiction only. Elsewhere, 210.21(B)3 has always allowed 15A only rated receptacles on 20A branch circuits with more than one outlet.

Identifying the same receptacle as 15A or 20A does not change the 20A rating, prohibited on 15A wire or fuses, per Table 210.21(B)3, not considering local AHJ interpretation per 90.4

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The receptacles have to be able to handle 20A on a 20A circuit. Didn't use to be an issue but now the big box are selling in the contractor packs a receptacle listed strickly 15A not like it use to be 15A or 20A. Had an inspector call that one out. Be careful.

What did he call out? Table 210.21(B)(3) clearly permits the use of a 15 amp duplex receptacle on a 20 amp branch circuit, and the product standard for listed receptacles requires that a 15 amp receptacle be suitable for feed-through use on a 20 amp branch circuit.

 

[petersonra]

I would be livid if I paid half a million dollars for a house and got a cheap-n-dirty electric system. I would demand the wiring be done a certain way. Of course, since I'm an electrician, I would wire the house myself rather than their contractor, but I guess I'm speaking on behalf of the majority who don't have such skills.

But I always thought that the Code required outdoor outlets to be on a separate circuit from the GP lighting circuits.

most people don't care because the bare minimum is more than adequate for their needs.

 

[4-20mA]

What did he call out? Table 210.21(B)(3) clearly permits the use of a 15 amp duplex receptacle on a 20 amp branch circuit, and the product standard for listed receptacles requires that a 15 amp receptacle be suitable for feed-through use on a 20 amp branch circuit.

Doesn't matter what the code says when the AHJ wants to see something.

We all know the rules for the 15amp recept on 20amp circuits. Hell, you can't even plug a 20amp male plug into a 15amp recept to try to pull the overcurrent.


Edited to take my opinion out of the comments.

 

[curt swartz]

Doesn't matter what the code says when the AHJ wants to see something.

Only if they have a formally adopted amendment. Inspectors can't make up their own rules of what they like to see. They need to follow the adopted code in their jurisdiction.

 

[brantmacga]

most people don't care because the bare minimum is more than adequate for their needs.

yes, absolutely. Other than lighting, bare minimum is enough for me. We use two receps in every bedroom; one for TV on the wall, one for a lamp and phone charger by the bed.

We use one receptacle in our living room for a lamp.
We use zero receptacles in our dining room unless I've got my laptop plugged in at the table if working from home, or my wife has her cricut machine out.
We use one receptacle in the den for a TV.
We use one receptacle on the patio for a TV.

The only other receptacles that see usage inside the house are kitchen and bathrooms. I have a closet full of networking equipment and amplifiers, and I have a few receps in there, but I added those. And I added some in the garage storage closet to charge my home tool batteries.

I try to be very minimalistic on switches also. I have one 3gg in my house, everything else is 1gg & 2gg. I do have wirelessly controlled switches though, so I can tell Siri to turn stuff off/on, or hit a button on my phone. And I have recessed lighting in every room.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Doesn't matter what the code says when the AHJ wants to see something.

We all know the rules for the 15amp recept on 20amp circuits. Hell, you can't even plug a 20amp male plug into a 15amp recept to try to pull the overcurrent.


Edited to take my opinion out of the comments.

It does matter...90.4 does not permit the AHJ to make up rules. The only way it would not matter would be of the jurisdiction that had adopted the code had also adopted a rule that prohibits the use of 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp circuits.

 

[electrofelon]

Doesn't matter what the code says when the AHJ wants to see something.

Absolutely it does. You nee to stand up for yourself and ask for a code reference. Its horrible for EVERYONE to let an inspector make up his own rules.

 

[4-20mA]

It does matter...90.4 does not permit the AHJ to make up rules. The only way it would not matter would be of the jurisdiction that had adopted the code had also adopted a rule that prohibits the use of 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp circuits.

Mind quoting me where I said anyone was "making up rules"? You or the other guy that said it, too. I'll wait.

 

[electrofelon]

Mind quoting me where I said anyone was "making up rules"? You or the other guy that said it, too. I'll wait.

you said this: "Doesn't matter what the code says when the AHJ wants to see something."

Sounds like an inspector making up rules to me, but I apologize if I misunderstood.

 

[4-20mA]

No worries. I guess I came off a little sideways too. But we know when an inspector wants to see something, we make sure he sees it.

I haven't had to pass an inspection in many years, BTW. I'm a plant monkey these days so I'll bow out of this one.

 

[electrofelon]

No worries. I guess I came off a little sideways too. But we know when an inspector wants to see something, we make sure he sees it.

We make sure we get a code reference if we are certain its not r a code requirement. The inspector can do things the way he wants on his own jobs.

 

[goldstar]

What did he call out? Table 210.21(B)(3) clearly permits the use of a 15 amp duplex receptacle on a 20 amp branch circuit, and the product standard for listed receptacles requires that a 15 amp receptacle be suitable for feed-through use on a 20 amp branch circuit.

I agree 100%. Besides, (aside from your Greenlee PVC heater) when was the last time you saw a 20A plug on a kitchen appliance ?

 

[robertd]

But I always thought that the Code required outdoor outlets to be on a separate circuit from the GP lighting circuits.

What I learned, or remembered, was dedicated 20A for SABC x2, laundry, bathrooms and outside.
For bathrooms 20A for outlet only in more than one bathroom, for outlet plus lights and/or fan, one bathroom per circuit.

The last time I tried to find the dedicated 20A outside requirement in NEC I couldn't, so maybe my memory is bad or I just miss-learned it.

It's been a while since I've done new construction, so if I'm installing an outside outlet it's an existing home, and I just run a new 20A circuit.

 

[tallgirl]

What I learned, or remembered, was dedicated 20A for SABC x2, laundry, bathrooms and outside.
For bathrooms 20A for outlet only in more than one bathroom, for outlet plus lights and/or fan, one bathroom per circuit.

The last time I tried to find the dedicated 20A outside requirement in NEC I couldn't, so maybe my memory is bad or I just miss-learned it.

It's been a while since I've done new construction, so if I'm installing an outside outlet it's an existing home, and I just run a new 20A circuit.

I remember there being a requirement for a 20A outside receptacle by the front “and optional rear door” as well.

I have a scar on my right middle finger which I believe I acquired making a hole in Hardy Board for one of those things.