working it hot

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Re: working it hot

Jim

How well would your family do without you? I don't want to hear about life insurance, I am curious how well they would do without you.

Another fact of electrical deaths in the trade - the younger and older electricians die more from electrical related instances.

Pierre
 
Re: working it hot

i'm assuming a simple switch LOTO would meet 1926.41(a)(1) here, which would save much tracing time.

they do make them..( i own one... )
 
Re: working it hot

Pierre: OSHA would have a picnic here if they seen 1 /10 of what i see.My choices are few play it there way or find another trade.Not at all saying i like how things are down here.Just trying to get 6 more years in with out getting hurt.
 
Re: working it hot

I was told today by a friend who took a 10 hr OSHA class, that some 5 to 10 electricians are killed every week this is what the OSHA instructor told the class.
 
Re: working it hot

Maybe if all AHJ started requiring journeymen that not only pass the electrical but OSHA training to be on a job things could change
 
Re: working it hot

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Maybe if all AHJ started requiring journeymen that not only pass the electrical but OSHA training to be on a job things could change
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Sorry...but I have enough to do! :D

Pin it somebody else!
 
Re: working it hot

RYAN ,why would that add to your load ? contractors licensing could handle this easy.NO osha training no license.Your job remains the same.Unless your wearing both hats
 
Re: working it hot

I don't really think it will ever happen but would be a good idea.Maybe if your workers comp and liability insurance rate were effected we could get voluntary classes.
 
Re: working it hot

while insurance companies do have clout, i seriously doubt thier sincerity in reducing the very risks they make a living from.

yanno...when the qualified definition spurned this on, i read and participated in this debate on more BB's than i can recall.

all involved (including myself) conclude that education is a key factor.

so where's it at now? have the very same entities who regulate these doctrines put forth dollar one ?

if memory serves NFPA 70E, a relativley small price to pay in comparrison to having to fly or drive to the closest metropolis for a $500 2-day subpart S course, wasn't recognized

is it now?

has it been included in the apprenticeship program?

if the answers are no, no & no, then i expect the annual body count to remain unchanged...
 
Re: working it hot

Romex Jockey, your mention of education is probably the biggest safety tool that could come into play.

The problem with this question
has it been included in the apprenticeship program?
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(NFPA 70E that is) is that some (yes, even in this thread) don't have any desire to offer apprenticeship training, and in fact feel that they don't owe an apprentice anything be it electrical or safety training.

Kind of of a sorry attitude in my opinion.

Roger

[ February 06, 2004, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: working it hot

what of all the orginizations that orbit the trade?

where are they as we read the continuos flow of carear tradesmen having safety epiphanys ??
 
Re: working it hot

I am an apprentice with about 2000 hours of experience. I recently worked in a live panel in a basement in order to add a circuit in a home. When I say "worked in a live panel", what I did was remove the panel cover, remove one of the 1/2 knockouts in the top of the panel and put in a plastic connector, bring in the romex through the connector, strip off the romex jacket, connect the ground, then the neutral, then the hot onto the breaker, and finally install the breaker while in the off position.
I was not wearing any ppe, although I did clear a bunch of stuff in front of the panel first so I would have adequate working space.

As an apprentice, should I not be working in a live panel like this? How else would you do it? Would you turn off the main breaker and work by flashlight, or bring in a generator? What kind of ppe should I be using if I must do this kind of job in the future?

Jason Rand
 
Re: working it hot

Jason ,the real question here is why were you doing this instead of the journeyman in charge? While i have allowed men under me in a panel they had far more hours under there belt.
 
Re: working it hot

Jason
It seems as though you are a second year apprentice(?). What training have you received to be able to work in a live panel? Have you had any training formal or on the job as to the hazards involved?
Part II of NFPA 70E Safety-Related Work Practices is a good start as to the requirements you need to follow. As far as PPE, to be honest I do not see many in our industry who work outside of larger plants/large commercial jobs using any PPE.
For this job, I am assuming a 120/240v system of say 200 amp main. Technically, OSHA requires the panel to be deenergized period (unless deenergizing creates more of a hazard), this very rarely happens in real life. NFPA 70E has the basic rules you need to follow - table 3-3.9.1, 3-3.9.2
In short you should be wearing safety glasses, hardhat, the proper boots, untreated denin cotton jeans, long sleeved shirt, note 2 states: " If voltage-rated gloves are rquired, the leather protectors worn external to the rubber gloves satisfy this requirement." And of course the properly insulated tools.
Note: the pliers and other tools we use daily are not listed for use 'out of the package' for live line voltage use. Read the small print, changing the handle guards does not conform to NFPA 70E or OSHA.
Aren't you glad you asked/ :D

Pierre
 
Re: working it hot

Pierre,
And of course the properly insulated tools.
Note: the pliers and other tools we use daily are not listed for use 'out of the package' for live line voltage use. Read the small print, changing the handle guards does not conform to NFPA 70E or OSHA.
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This is a pair of my linemans

;) )

Roger

[ February 08, 2004, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: working it hot

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Jason ,the real question here is why were you doing this instead of the journeyman in charge? While i have allowed men under me in a panel they had far more hours under there belt.
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Jim, I was doing it because I was asked to, and I felt comfortable doing it. I did it in the same way I've seen it done many times before by Masters and Journeymen in my company. I have not made up my mind about whether I want to continue working in live panels, or whether I will insist that we turn off the main. However, I see no difference, in terms of safety, between my doing this particular job, or the Master doing the job, if we both do it the same way. Of course, we could both be doing it the wrong way, which is why I hang out and ask questions on a forum like this.

Jason Rand
 
Re: working it hot

Roger, would you consider the job I described to be a "precarious job"? In other words, would you deenergize?

Jason Rand
 
Re: working it hot

Jason the short answer is OSHA requires the panel to be de-energized.

If under certain conditions it can not be de-energized you must wear the correct PPE.

What the correct PPE is depends on the Fault current available.

IMO working with bare grounds (NM cable) in a service panel can be extremely dangerous.

I know it is done all the time but think about what can happen. :eek:
 
Re: working it hot

Roger, might I make a suggestion for improving your "safety device"? If you attach a conductor to those pliers and run it down into your pants, you will be encouraged to think even more carefully before you work on hot conductors in precarious situations. :)

doing my part to encourage safe working practices,
Jason Rand
 
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