working it hot
- Thread starter jim sutton
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Re: working it hot
Thanks Pierre and Bob for making me aware of the OSHA requirements. I am curious if anyone here follows those OSHA requirements for a job like the one I described. As I have said, I have never seen it happen with my company, but I really don't know if that is typical or not.
How many here deenergize a panel when they bring in a new wire and install a breaker?
Jason Rand
Thanks Pierre and Bob for making me aware of the OSHA requirements. I am curious if anyone here follows those OSHA requirements for a job like the one I described. As I have said, I have never seen it happen with my company, but I really don't know if that is typical or not.
How many here deenergize a panel when they bring in a new wire and install a breaker?
Jason Rand
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: working it hot
Jason I was brought into the trade doing live work all the time like yourself, eventually I ended up at a company that gave me training and follows the rules.
As many here can tell you education is the key, until I was trained I was under the belief that live work was required of electricians when actually it is prohibited.
As time goes on I am sure more companies will see the light, many times driven by their insurance company to provide safety training.
At the least you should have face shield, gloves etc. when you open a panel.
In the service panel arc blast while less of a problem in a home panel can still burn you.
I know two people who got severely burned fingers from a 20 amp circuit (277 volt) from the arc.
Both of these guys are great electricians but things can happen to anyone.
Jason I was brought into the trade doing live work all the time like yourself, eventually I ended up at a company that gave me training and follows the rules.
As many here can tell you education is the key, until I was trained I was under the belief that live work was required of electricians when actually it is prohibited.
As time goes on I am sure more companies will see the light, many times driven by their insurance company to provide safety training.
At the least you should have face shield, gloves etc. when you open a panel.
In the service panel arc blast while less of a problem in a home panel can still burn you.
I know two people who got severely burned fingers from a 20 amp circuit (277 volt) from the arc.
Both of these guys are great electricians but things can happen to anyone.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: working it hot
Jason, there is nothing wrong in you wanting to learn and move up.Turning off the main is a good idea and even i do that unless caught with no flashlight.While that isn't perfect it at least lowers the risk,and the leader should have at least overseen this.A lot of unsafe things i have done for 20 years have come to an end after joining this forum,and what you did would be one of them.Now if time is permitting and this was a new house i might let you make up a panel (assuming it has no power )and then inspect it.The biggest risk here was when you removed the jacket,it is way to easy for that bare wire to make contact with something.While you need to learn , your first time in a live panel should not been alone.
Jason, there is nothing wrong in you wanting to learn and move up.Turning off the main is a good idea and even i do that unless caught with no flashlight.While that isn't perfect it at least lowers the risk,and the leader should have at least overseen this.A lot of unsafe things i have done for 20 years have come to an end after joining this forum,and what you did would be one of them.Now if time is permitting and this was a new house i might let you make up a panel (assuming it has no power )and then inspect it.The biggest risk here was when you removed the jacket,it is way to easy for that bare wire to make contact with something.While you need to learn , your first time in a live panel should not been alone.
Re: working it hot
Isn't the only way to satisfy the OSHA requirements for this case to pull the meter? (Are there any places in the country that have a separate disconnect before the panel?) The panel is still live after turning off the main. Personally, I would rather have the main on to be able to have power and not get any false sense of security that the main is off.
[ February 10, 2004, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: paul32 ]
Isn't the only way to satisfy the OSHA requirements for this case to pull the meter? (Are there any places in the country that have a separate disconnect before the panel?) The panel is still live after turning off the main. Personally, I would rather have the main on to be able to have power and not get any false sense of security that the main is off.
[ February 10, 2004, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: paul32 ]
mjf
Senior Member
Re: working it hot
where i live, i'm not allowed to pull a meter!! only the power company can do that. when i add a new curcuit to a panel i do it live (i only do residential - because thats what i know) the first thing my old boss told me was "be careful, when it comes to electricity, a little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous". I have continued to heed this warning over the years; i only do what i know how to do!!! sometimes i must work hot to trouble shoot a circuit. I never worked for a big electrical outfit, just my old boss and me. Now i work by myself or sometimes with a helper (who never touches a live wire) Anytime i do have to go into a panel i try to have someone around.
where i live, i'm not allowed to pull a meter!! only the power company can do that. when i add a new curcuit to a panel i do it live (i only do residential - because thats what i know) the first thing my old boss told me was "be careful, when it comes to electricity, a little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous". I have continued to heed this warning over the years; i only do what i know how to do!!! sometimes i must work hot to trouble shoot a circuit. I never worked for a big electrical outfit, just my old boss and me. Now i work by myself or sometimes with a helper (who never touches a live wire) Anytime i do have to go into a panel i try to have someone around.
Re: working it hot
A power company asserting that under no conditions may a qualified person pull the meter would be on pretty shakey legal ground I think.
The own the meter, but the property owner owns the enclosure it's in. Meter locks are there to prevent tampering... if you're not tampering, and you notify the PoCo, I can't see them having any great success levying fines.
Out here in CA we yank them all the time, if it's locked and I need in there, I go through the banding and pull it anyway. I'll be damned if the power companys paranoia is going to prevent me from working safely.
Usually it's not a problem, on the few occasions it has been, I look at it like this:
NEC 110.3(a)"In judging equpipment, considerations such as the following will be evaluated: (5) Heating effects under normal conditions of use and also under abnormal conditions likely to arise in service.
followed by NEC 110.12(c): "Internal parts of electrical equpiment, including busbars wiring terminals, insulators, and other surfaces shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials....(skipping a bit)..such as parts that are broken, bent, cut; or detiorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating".
So if I'm on a service call, and I have ANY reason to believe the service equipment may have been exposed to corrosive agents or excessive heat, the meter jaws MUST be inspected to determine their suitability for continued service (and brother, that meter's comin out, and I might just get some de-engergized work done while it's out).
Your local PoCo has a lot of weight, but nobody has the right to make you work unsafely.
-Noxx
A power company asserting that under no conditions may a qualified person pull the meter would be on pretty shakey legal ground I think.
The own the meter, but the property owner owns the enclosure it's in. Meter locks are there to prevent tampering... if you're not tampering, and you notify the PoCo, I can't see them having any great success levying fines.
Out here in CA we yank them all the time, if it's locked and I need in there, I go through the banding and pull it anyway. I'll be damned if the power companys paranoia is going to prevent me from working safely.
Usually it's not a problem, on the few occasions it has been, I look at it like this:
NEC 110.3(a)"In judging equpipment, considerations such as the following will be evaluated: (5) Heating effects under normal conditions of use and also under abnormal conditions likely to arise in service.
followed by NEC 110.12(c): "Internal parts of electrical equpiment, including busbars wiring terminals, insulators, and other surfaces shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials....(skipping a bit)..such as parts that are broken, bent, cut; or detiorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating".
So if I'm on a service call, and I have ANY reason to believe the service equipment may have been exposed to corrosive agents or excessive heat, the meter jaws MUST be inspected to determine their suitability for continued service (and brother, that meter's comin out, and I might just get some de-engergized work done while it's out).
Your local PoCo has a lot of weight, but nobody has the right to make you work unsafely.
-Noxx
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