Power Bridge

[don_resqcapt19]

What about a window A/C unit with an listed appliance cord set for an extension, it seems to me that these are taking the place of in wall wiring methods, is there any way to govern these cords?

Roger

For a portable appliance, like the widow AC, I don't see a code rule that says you can't use an extension cord. However UL says that you can only use a cord to supply an window AC if the instructions for the AC say you can. (ACOT)

In this thread we are not talking about supplying a portable appliance with a cord in this thread. We are talking about supplying fixed wiring of the building with a cord, and that is a code violation.

The UL Guide information for Cord Sets and Power Supply Cords (ELBZ) says they are for supplying portable appliances. I fail to see how a permanently installed outlet can be seen as a portable appliance.

 

[al hildenbrand]

For a portable appliance, like the widow AC, I don't see a code rule that says you can't use an extension cord. However UL says that you can only use a cord to supply an window AC if the instructions for the AC say you can. (ACOT)

In this thread we are not talking about supplying a portable appliance with a cord in this thread. We are talking about supplying fixed wiring of the building with a cord, and that is a code violation.

The UL Guide information for Cord Sets and Power Supply Cords (ELBZ) says they are for supplying portable appliances. I fail to see how a permanently installed outlet can be seen as a portable appliance.

After asking and receiving permission from PowerBridge, I'd like to draw your attention to the "Authorization To Mark" Intertek (ETL) document supplied to PowerBridge (HD Products Inc. DBA PowerBridge) where the product is desribed (by Intertek) as:

The Model TSPBIW is an in-wall electrical appliance assembly consisting of receptacle or plug along with wall housing and electrical box to provide ease of connection from existing existing a.c. power source to appliances. An access opening is provided to route interface cables between electrical appliances.
The Model SSPBIW is similar to TSPBIW except SSPBIW is used for AC power routing only.

 

[iwire]

I've forgotten, in your area, is there no legal allowance for a Owner / Occupant of a detached single family dwelling to also pull the permit and have an inspection on work that the Owner / Occupant does on his/er dwelling?

I am licensed in MA, RI and CT.

In MA permits and inspections are only required when electrical work is done 'for hire' so IMO a homeowner could install this unit. An 'AV contractor' could not with out permits.

In RI, I do not know if homeowners can do that or not.

In CT they require permits and inspections even for LV landscape lighting so I will make an assumption that this would as well.

 

[roger]

The UL Guide information for Cord Sets and Power Supply Cords (ELBZ) says they are for supplying portable appliances. I fail to see how a permanently installed outlet can be seen as a portable appliance.

Don, let's say the particular AC unit says you can use a cord, in as much as the AC unit may be screwed in place and UL says cord sets are for portable appliances, is the AC a portable appliance if it is screwed in place?

Roger

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Don, let's say the particular AC unit says you can use a cord, in as much as the AC unit may be screwed in place and UL says cord sets are for portable appliances, is the AC a portable appliance if it is screwed in place?

Roger

That is a good question and the same one that can be asked about stoves and refrigerators in seismic locations. I still see that as a portable appliance, but I can't see how anyone can say a box installed in the wall is portable appliance.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Al,
The listing and information from the listing agency cannot change a code rule. As I have said a number of times, for me to accept this product, it will require a FI or CMP statement.

 

[iwire]

I can't see how anyone can say a box installed in the wall is portable appliance.

I agree.

I will also point out that to the NEC this product is not an appliance portable or otherwise as it does not use electricity.




From 2008 NEC Article 100

Appliance. Utilization equipment, generally other than industrial,
that is normally built in standardized sizes or types
and is installed or connected as a unit to perform one or
more functions such as clothes washing, air conditioning,
food mixing, deep frying, and so forth.

Utilization Equipment. Equipment that utilizes electric
energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating,
lighting, or similar purposes.

 

[LarryFine]

400.8 lists, as the first banned use, "as a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure." The receptacle that provides power is fixed to the structure - at least as pictured in the ad copy. Ditto for the power inlet. If the extension cord isn't filling in a gap in the fixed wiring of the structure, I cannot think of a better example.

Is the power cord on any stationary appliance any different?

It's only tempory? Sure it is. Again, the NEC allows some guidance. Section 590.3 places time constraints. With both the receptacles and the inlet mounted in the wall, I don't see anything changing in 90 days (590.3B).

I haven't umplugged my washer, dryer, range, or microwave in years.

 

[LarryFine]

Listing or no listing, there is no question in my mind that I would hang a red tag on the installation of this product. It is very clearly using flexible cord in place of permanent wiring. There is nothing that a listing can do to change this fact.

So, what is, to you, a legitimate way of powering a hard-wired receptacle from a non-hard-wired source, such as a UPS or surge device?

(Although the receptacle isn't really hard-wired in the sense that it is not directly powered by premises wiring.)

 

[LarryFine]

Sorry Larry, no royalties for you even though you probably thought of it before any of these others: you snooze, you loose. :grin:

That's the least of my concerns.

 

[LarryFine]

Is your main problem with this product that it is permanently mounted?

There are plenty of appliances, lighting fixtures, etc., that are 'permanently mounted' to the structure and still powered via flexible cords.

 

[LarryFine]

Justin, first off I commend you for standing up here and stating your belief in this product. I disagree with several points you make. One of the things you stated is your product doesn't "replace" fixed wiring it "extends it". That is just silly, you have effectively made an extension cord replace what should be a fixed portion of a branch circuit.

Extension cords are not permanent building wiring, even if sections of them use in-wall wire types. The entire thing is an extension cord of sorts, and is not part of the premises wiring. A receptacle thusly wired cannot replace a code-required receptacle.

Because there is two boxes in the wall connected by NM, after the extension cord, is why I say it this,

So, anything affixed to the structure is permanent wiring? What about a swag fixture hung by a chain and plugged in?

... the big difference is the cords are at the appliance and there is just ONE cord not two. If I plug my dishwasher cord into an extension cord then into an outlet it is a direct violation of code. Well your product is doing the same thing, it is using two cords (the one on the TV then the one in your kit.

So, appliance cords cannot plug into extension cords?

 

[LarryFine]

Another example in ECM (I lost the link) showed a cord-fed wall-mounted receptacle that was in violation and one of the reasons was because it could have been fed by fixed wiring methods (the substitute clause again).

The intended use of these products can not be duplicated by all-hard-wired methods.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Don,

Back at post # 280 I wrote:

I really don't care if the cord is permanent or not. If you are feeding the fixed wiring of the building with a cord you are using the cord as a substitute for the fixed wiring of the building and you have a violation of 400.8(1).

That stance flies in the face of the common practice across the country of connecting portable standby generators to a dwelling Premises Wiring (System) with an flanged surface inlet.

Just maybe you are missing something.

 

[iwire]

Back at post # 280 I wrote:

That stance flies in the face of the common practice across the country of connecting portable standby generators to a dwelling Premises Wiring (System) with an flanged surface inlet.

Just maybe you are missing something.

In my opinion that is only allowed by the rules in 590 and is limited to the time period of the 'emergency'.

 

[iwire]

Is the power cord on any stationary appliance any different?

I haven't umplugged my washer, dryer, range, or microwave in years.

In the real world? No

To the NEC yes, appliances are allowed to be cord and plug connected.

This product is not an appliance to the NEC

The intended use of these products can not be duplicated by all-hard-wired methods.

Of course it can be, just not they way you want to do it.

You could install a hard wired surge suppressor into the circuit, problem solved.

So, what is, to you, a legitimate way of powering a hard-wired receptacle from a non-hard-wired source, such as a UPS or surge device?

I don't believe there is legitimate way.

Use a hard wired UPS, TVSS etc.

Extension cords are not permanent building wiring, even if sections of them use in-wall wire types. The entire thing is an extension cord of sorts, and is not part of the premises wiring. A receptacle thusly wired cannot replace a code-required receptacle.

No Grog ???

So, anything affixed to the structure is permanent wiring?

IMO no, that picture of grandma hung on the wall is not.

Two old works cut into a wall, connected with NM and equipped with devices is IMO permanent (as it gets) wiring.

If the above is not permanent wiring what would you call permanent wiring? Must it be superglued to the structure?

So, appliance cords cannot plug into extension cords?

Some cannot per UL but this product is not an appliance to the NEC anyway.

One last thing Larry ..... can you learn to use the multi-quote feature? :grin::grin:

 

[roger]

One last thing Larry ..... can you learn to use the multi-quote feature? :grin::grin:

Okay, now I'm on your side Bob.

Roger

 

[al hildenbrand]

In my opinion that is only allowed by the rules in 590 and is limited to the time period of the 'emergency'.

I see that Chapter 5 modifies Chapters 1-4, but I don't see that Chapter 5 modifies Chapter 7. See 90.3.

Note that 702.6 goes out of its way to allow an exception for "temporary" situations, as opposed to the implied "permanent" installations of 702.

Nothing in 702 limits an optional standby portable generator that is cord and plug connected to a Premises Wiring (System) through a flanged surface inlet to the "temporary" constraints of Article 590.

Any one cord, connected at the inlet can be powered permanently by an endless succession of portable generators, without ever disconnecting the cord at the inlet.

 

[iwire]

I see that Chapter 5 modifies Chapters 1-4, but I don't see that Chapter 5 modifies Chapter 7. See 90.3.

When we are installing anything covered by Article 702 we still must follow chapters 1 through 4. Chapter 5 can modify those rules in chapters 1 through 4.

IMO if it where not for Article 590 we would have to use Chapter 3 wiring methods to connect portable generators.

Note that 702.6 goes out of its way to allow an exception for "temporary" situations, as opposed to the implied "permanent" installations of 702.

I don't get the connection.

Nothing in 702 limits an optional standby portable generator that is cord and plug connected to a Premises Wiring (System) through a flanged surface inlet to the "temporary" constraints of Article 590.

In my opinion Article 590 applies in full.

Any one cord, connected at the inlet can be powered permanently by an endless succession of portable generators, without ever disconnecting the cord at the inlet.

IMO 590 limits the use of the cord to the duration of the emergency.

 

[mivey]

...I support our product, specifically the use of a cord set as specifically defined in 400.7 to extend circuit power to an appliance...

What appliance? The cord is energizing fixed equipment.

Add:
I see Don addressed this later.

In this thread we are not talking about supplying a portable appliance with a cord in this thread. We are talking about supplying fixed wiring of the building with a cord, and that is a code violation.

I'll read forward.