Power Bridge

[mivey]

The intended use of these products can not be duplicated by all-hard-wired methods.

Are you thinking the intended use is to plug into a UPS?

The main, primary, numero uno use of this product is shown to be plugging into an existing outlet. The option of plugging into a UPS is one very specific application of the product and not how the device is shown to be used in general.

I understand YOUR main use of this setup may be for plugging into a UPS, but that is not the general nature of the listed product.

 

[PowerBridgeTech]

In my opinion Article 590 applies in full.
IMO 590 limits the use of the cord to the duration of the emergency.

Are you suggesting Art. 590.3 "duration" apply to references of 400.7 permitted use of a flexible power supply or appliance cord and the use of emergency only limitation? That would be hard to press IMO.

Perhaps I got off track with discussion and your reference is only to generators (hopefully).

However, someone did bring 590 up previously as to duration of use of an INLET.

Curious how 590 has anything to do with using a power supply cord directly and specifically to an INLET, when 406.6 (D) does not make reference to 590 for duration of connection or use or cites "emergency use" only. I don't see any reference to cords either, perhaps I am missing a reference?

 

[mivey]

How is it construed by others here as a substitute for a structures wiring, when the structure has premise wiring in already in place?

How about 210.50(B)

Cord Connections. A receptacle outlet shall be installed wherever flexible cords with attachment plugs are used. Where flexible cords are permitted to be permanently connected, receptacles shall be permitted to be omitted for such cords.

So even if there was not an existing premise wiring receptacle in place near the TV, we are required to install one. Even an extension cord run up the wall to the TV would also be a violation of 210.50(B) as it would be a substitute for the required receptacle.

Anybody buying that?

 

[PowerBridgeTech]

What appliance? The cord is energizing fixed equipment.

Okay, let's take the in-wall extension out of the equation.
NO ROMEX, NO j-boxes, NO Inlet, NO receptacle.

Can a flexible power supply/ appliance cord be used to extend power from the front of the existing circuit outlet to energize an appliance, say specifically a TV to its power supply cord whether attached to the device or detactable, in either case, some appliances/TV's are fixed and some are replaceable. Is this against 400.7 Permitted Use?
Is it applicable to 400.8 (1) for Uses Not Permitted?

 

[Little Bill]

First of all, Tom or whoever started this, I want you to know you have taken 3+ hours of my time.
Second, I don't see anything wrong with this product.

Third, just a thought, the in-wall NM should be fastened within 8" of the plastic box.

 

[mivey]

Okay, let's take the in-wall extension out of the equation.
NO ROMEX, NO j-boxes, NO Inlet, NO receptacle.

Can a flexible power supply/ appliance cord be used to extend power from the front of the existing circuit outlet to energize an appliance, say specifically a TV to its power supply cord whether attached to the device or detactable, in either case, some appliances/TV's are fixed and some are replaceable. Is this against 400.7 Permitted Use?
Is it applicable to 400.8 (1) for Uses Not Permitted?

We passed each other in posting. See my post #303.

 

[PowerBridgeTech]

How about 210.50(B)
So even if there was not an existing premise wiring receptacle in place near the TV, we are required to install one. Even an extension cord run up the wall to the TV would also be a violation of 210.50(B) as it would be a substitute for the required receptacle.

Anybody buying that?

Okay, so bring this home for me. "Receptacles shall be permitted to be omitted"
to say if a cord is permitted it can be use in-place-of an outlet receptacle?
I'll play dumb for a moment, I'm not following this as a "no use of a cord", where cords are permitted in 400.7.

Or look at this as, another Code section to also apply to the PowerBridge. It supplies the receptacle at the TV location through method 3 wiring and an INLET which allows this extension to be energized from a cord.

I'll let you humor me or embarass me on this one. But it will be the last time!

 

[PowerBridgeTech]

First of all, Tom or whoever started this, I want you to know you have taken 3+ hours of my time.
Second, I don't see anything wrong with this product.

Third, just a thought, the in-wall NM should be fastened within 8" of the plastic box.

Thanks for your endurance!

I'm pretty sure in a retrofit installation NM attachment is not required.

334.30 (B) [NM] cable shall be permitted to be unsupported where the cable: (1) Is fished between access points through concealed spaces in finished buildings or structures and supporting is impracticable.

Hope you haven't busted your neck all these years doing so.

 

[mivey]

Okay, so bring this home for me. "Receptacles shall be permitted to be omitted" to say if a cord is permitted it can be use in-place-of an outlet receptacle?

That means in some cases the flexible cord from the appliance can be hardwired to the box instead of having a male connector on the end.

I'll play dumb for a moment, I'm not following this as a "no use of a cord", where cords are permitted in 400.7.

Or look at this as, another Code section to also apply to the PowerBridge. It supplies the receptacle at the TV location through method 3 wiring and an INLET which allows this extension to be energized from a cord.

I'll let you humor me or embarass me on this one. But it will be that last time!

I'm not sure which role I'll be playing here but are we saying the PowerBridge is now a fixed wiring method? :grin:

OK, now we are back to: can we power fixed wiring methods using a cord? What lap are we on?:grin:

 

[LarryFine]

No Grog ???

Arrgh!

Two old works cut into a wall, connected with NM and equipped with devices is IMO permanent (as it gets) wiring.

Even if it's isolated from the premises wiring? What about a length of NM used for other wiring?

If the above is not permanent wiring what would you call permanent wiring? Must it be superglued to the structure?

Again, for 'permanent,' I'm not as concerned about its physical attachment as I am about it not being hard-wired to the premises wiring.

Okay, step by step, tell me the point it becomes an NEC issue at all, and when it becomes a violation:

1. Punch two holes in the wall.
2. Insert a length of NM hole to hole.
3. Insert each end in an old work box.
4. Attach the boxes to the drywall.
5. Install a receptacle and plate in one box.
6. Hand and plug in the TV.
7. Install an inlet in the other box.
8. Push a female cord end onto the inlet.
9. Plug male cord end into a surge strip or UPS.
10. Plug the strip or UPS into a nearby receptacle.

Some cannot per UL but this product is not an appliance to the NEC anyway.

Not relevant to my arguments.

One last thing Larry ..... can you learn to use the multi-quote feature? :grin::grin:

Nope, I haven't figured that one out yet.




Actually, I do combine them when quoting one person, even if they're from separate posts. And, to be honest, Bob, I have seen you post several responses in a row when each is quoting a separate post. :roll:

Plus, I understand you're concerned about maintaining your leadership in the post count, but I'll never match your posts-per-day rate anyway, so you're safe.

 

[mivey]

Hope you haven't busted your neck all these years doing so.

I'm glad he knows better now. I bet cutting out sheetrock and patching to get the staples in was getting old.:grin:

 

[iwire]

Thanks for your endurance!

:grin:

And thank you for yours.

I'm pretty sure in a retrofit installation NM attachment is not required.

I agree with you.

 

[mivey]

OK, now we are back to: can we power fixed wiring methods using a cord?

An extension cord, that is.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

So, what is, to you, a legitimate way of powering a hard-wired receptacle from a non-hard-wired source, such as a UPS or surge device?

(Although the receptacle isn't really hard-wired in the sense that it is not directly powered by premises wiring.)

In my opinion there is no code compliant way to do that. Do it right and use a hard wired UPS.

 

[mivey]

Okay, step by step, tell me the point it becomes an NEC issue at all, and when it becomes a violation:

1. Punch two holes in the wall.
2. Insert a length of NM hole to hole.
3. Insert each end in an old work box.
4. Attach the boxes to the drywall.
5. Install a receptacle and plate in one box.
6. Hand and plug in the TV.
7. Install an inlet in the other box.
8. Push a female cord end onto the inlet.
9. Plug male cord end into a nearby receptacle.

At the revised step #9.

 

[LarryFine]

Are you thinking the intended use is to plug into a UPS?

Absolutely.

The main, primary, numero uno use of this product is shown to be plugging into an existing outlet.

Absolutely not. Those get hard-wired.

The option of plugging into a UPS is one very specific application of the product and not how the device is shown to be used in general.

I understand YOUR main use of this setup may be for plugging into a UPS, but that is not the general nature of the listed product.

If I just sell the inlet, that's up to the installer to follow the rules. The ones I install I hook up, and I explain they're not for direct plug-in.

 

[mivey]

Absolutely.

Absolutely not. Those get hard-wired.

If I just sell the inlet, that's up to the installer to follow the rules. The ones I install I hook up, and I explain they're not for direct plug-in.

That is the way you use the equipment you make. The PowerBridge is specifically shown to be used by connecting directly to an existing receptacle. In the instruction sheet, the use of a UPS is shown to be optional.

Add: I repeated myself for no reason. Sorry.

 

[al hildenbrand]

590.1 Scope.

The provisions of this article apply to temporary electric power and lighting installations.

When we are installing anything covered by Article 702 we still must follow chapters 1 through 4. Chapter 5 can modify those rules in chapters 1 through 4.

IMO if it where not for Article 590 we would have to use Chapter 3 wiring methods to connect portable generators.

In my opinion Article 590 applies in full.

IMO 590 limits the use of the cord to the duration of the emergency.

The Power Company cannot guarantee that they can provide power in the next minute, next hour, or next day. The duration of electric power from the PoCo is temporary also.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

When the PoCo doesn't restore in 90 days, think Katrina, all I have to do is unplug and replug the inlet, and 'viola, a new connection has been made. The clock is reset.

It's just like the monthly required exercising of a GFCI. . . every one schedules their life around it. That's why GFIs continue to work. Anyone using the PowerBridge will mark their calendars for a cord disconnection every 89.99 days, without fail. Prove that they won't.

 

[LarryFine]

At the revised step #9.

9. Plug male cord end into a nearby receptacle.

Hey, you changed my list! ()

9. Plug male cord end into a surge strip or UPS.
10. Plug the strip or UPS into a nearby receptacle.

So, you agree that indirect powering, say by a surge or UPS, is okay?

 

[PowerBridgeTech]

Anyone using the PowerBridge will mark their calendars for a cord disconnection every 89.99 days, without fail. Prove that they won't.

There you have it! I knew Al would solve this puzzle! :grin:
This is the Code Compliant article to apply, 590 it is. I'll have the update made next week to the Product Information Section of the Customer user manual and website. This works for me.

Everyone happy? Can we all go home now?

Okay, it was a good thought.