K & t...

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1793

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, Kentucky
Occupation
Inspector
I would like to get some opinions about the following photos.

Do you see anything inherently hazardous in any of the following? I'm interested in would you leave this or would you "try" to correct or upgrade and if so to what extent and why.
 

cpal

Senior Member
Location
MA
I would like to get some opinions about the following photos.

Do you see anything inherently hazardous in any of the following? I'm interested in would you leave this or would you "try" to correct or upgrade and if so to what extent and why.

I'm not aware of any issue of the NEC 62 to present that would not have required a better job of supporting that wire.

That being said the BX and caplet is the way it was done.

There is a strong argument to abondon any wiring 50 years or older, (in general) if that wire is dried out and cracking, and if thats an attic and if you are on T&M I would suggest replacing as much as possible.

Just My Opinion.
 

Power Tech

Senior Member
I'll show my underbelly once more.

My opinion, get rid of it. Bring it up to date. Last time I said bad things about K&T I was tarred and feathered.

It looks like they just put a new roof on and are into upgrading.

Last time I found a glowing connection and told the customer this stuff is a fire hazard and posted on this forum, I was accused of being a liar and a fraud.

I have only been in the trade for 30 years, so I know I still have a lot to learn.

One guy thinks its okay to splice into it. He is the one that knows all about this stuff.

I have been told I do not know enough on the subject.
 

1793

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, Kentucky
Occupation
Inspector
I'm not aware of any issue of the NEC 62 to present that would not have required a better job of supporting that wire.... if thats an attic and if you are on T&M I would suggest replacing as much as possible.

Just My Opinion.

What method would you use to transition to newer wiring methods, NM or BX/AC.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Well, I think one could argue the use of electricity is inherently dangerous ,.... I would not replace it out of the goodness of my heart but I would recommend that it be replaced .. I also doubt that,. that installation was ever code compliant,..at the least a crappy install

I sure would hate to be up there and lose the lamp in the o'le drop light/ flashlight and stumble through that trap,.. yikes:grin:
 

M. D.

Senior Member
What method would you use to transition to newer wiring methods, NM or BX/AC.

I would remove and replace not transition the only thing I do to K&T is repair when I have to,.. reduce it's use any chance I get , replace it when I get my way:)
 
K & T like that is pretty common in Cleveland. Biggest obstacle here is cost, with many homes selling around $20,000.00 - $30,000.00 a rewire is pretty hard to sell unless there is a rehab grant or some such. The ones I've worked on had lots of "mountain folk" splices & bootlegged neutrals.
 

1793

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, Kentucky
Occupation
Inspector
I would remove and replace not transition the only thing I do to K&T is repair when I have to,.. reduce it's use any chance I get , replace it when I get my way:)

So you would take it all out. Even the drops down the walls? In the past when I've had to work on K & T we just replaced what we could get to and use that that was inaccessible.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Yes that is what I would reccomend. If it were my house it would be removed ,.. I feel the same way about old nasty B.X.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
That K&T job was garbage work from the start. I know life is rough in KY and not putting KY down ,my wife was raised there and they are great people. I have never seen such bad work untill i was in KY. In part it is because of the licensing laws. Was offered a license there 20 years ago with no test just a charge of $60 in Shephardsville. Hopefully things have chaned. I really prefer to not add anything to any K&T system. What i would do if i seen this place is try to talk the owners into a rewire job. I would mark on my bill what i found and keep pictures for protection. Have rewired many 1920's homes here in Tampa because insurance companies wanted me to say i felt the place was safe. Think not.
Yes if K&T were installed neat and untouched and uninsulated and service was good i would sign them off.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Yes if K&T were installed neat and untouched and uninsulated and service was good i would sign them off.
I agree. My opinion is that an existing K&T installation that has not been overloaded (evidenced by proper OCP in place now, no (or few) added taps, and no visible damage) is okay to leave in place.

Replacing visible sections would merely add possible trouble spots. Unless the house is being gutted, leave it alone and make sure any new additions are made as new circuits, especially for receptacles.
 

DownRiverGUy

Member
Location
Canton, MI
So.... hypothetically speaking here :roll:... say a very green 23year old engineer is looking at these pictures and has no clue what he is looking at...

Would any of you guys care to explain this type of wiring method? :confused:
 

e57

Senior Member
I would like to get some opinions about the following photos.

Do you see anything inherently hazardous in any of the following? I'm interested in would you leave this or would you "try" to correct or upgrade and if so to what extent and why.
The only hazard I see - is the debris... There are a number of support issues, (See 394.30) the second pic of the monkey face in mid-air supported by it's splices is a good example of a bad addition, and change of method... Otherwise, you should physically inspect for dry or brittle insulation. Specifically conductors that cross should have a porcilin tube, lume, and separation. If the attic is to remain accessible, I would suggest J-boxes with NM or conduit to feed down to branch extentions down the walls, and refeed of the lighting in their original boxes. In this way - if you bring a new circuit(s) up from the panel that feeds the K&T it can all get a ground local for other up-grades as they occur. This method also allows the walls to remain if they are not being opened and can allow load on the circuits to be reduced if necessary. You would need to fully trace and isolate portions of the circuit and test to be sure new break up's in the circuit are what is required... In this way they can insulate most all of the attic, and any remaining K&T can be put under plywood barriers, and insulate to the box. And anything going down the walls can stay as is. (Some areas even allow it to be insulated under certain conditions)

I'll show my underbelly once more.

My opinion, get rid of it. Bring it up to date. Last time I said bad things about K&T I was tarred and feathered.

It looks like they just put a new roof on and are into upgrading.

Last time I found a glowing connection and told the customer this stuff is a fire hazard and posted on this forum, I was accused of being a liar and a fraud.

I have only been in the trade for 30 years, so I know I still have a lot to learn.

One guy thinks its okay to splice into it. He is the one that knows all about this stuff.

I have been told I do not know enough on the subject.
To be clear once again - telling cusomers that their house will burn down (any second) because of the mere presence of K&T is untrue. And THAT was that was the heat on the topic.....

So.... hypothetically speaking here :roll:... say a very green 23year old engineer is looking at these pictures and has no clue what he is looking at...

Would any of you guys care to explain this type of wiring method? :confused:
An attic full of roofing debris - which could stand a laborer with a vaccum to expose the rest of it... But much of the wiring is K&T. (Knob and Tube covered in article 394, a single conductor wiring method popular from the 1890's to - in certain places the early 1970's) With what appears in at least one of the pictures - an AC cable tapped into a run of K&T in the 1950's. Although an acceptable practice at the time of install - it was done incorrectly - note the lack of support within proper distance from the splices. I would check to see if the casing of the AC cable is grounded - it may have been done in a wall to any cold water pipe - an accepted practice for many years.

CHeck out this link
 
Last edited:

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
The only hazard I see - is the debris... There are a number of support issues, (See 394.30) the second pic of the monkey face in mid-air supported by it's splices is a good example of a bad addition, and change of method... Otherwise, you should physically inspect for dry or brittle insulation. Specifically conductors that cross should have a porcilin tube, lume, and separation. If the attic is to remain accessible, I would suggest J-boxes with NM or conduit to feed down to branch extentions down the walls, and refeed of the lighting in their original boxes. In this way - if you bring a new circuit(s) up from the panel that feeds the K&T it can all get a ground local for other up-grades as they occur. This method also allows the walls to remain if they are not being opened and can allow load on the circuits to be reduced if necessary. You would need to fully trace and isolate portions of the circuit and test to be sure new break up's in the circuit are what is required... In this way they can insulate most all of the attic, and any remaining K&T can be put under plywood barriers, and insulate to the box. And anything going down the walls can stay as is. (Some areas even allow it to be insulated under certain conditions)

To be clear once again - telling cusomers that their house will burn down (any second) because of the mere presence of K&T is untrue. And THAT was that was the heat on the topic.....

An attic full of roofing debris - which could stand a laborer with a vaccum to expose the rest of it... But much of the wiring is K&T. (Knob and Tube covered in article 394, a single conductor wiring method popular from the 1890's to - in certain places the early 1970's) With what appears in at least one of the pictures - an AC cable tapped into a run of K&T in the 1950's. Although an acceptable practice at the time of install - it was done incorrectly - note the lack of support within proper distance from the splices. I would check to see if the casing of the AC cable is grounded - it may have been done in a wall to any cold water pipe - an accepted practice for many years.

CHeck out this link

It has lasted this long without issue however it is always to the owners advantage to eliminate a little every year until it is brought up to current code.Within his budget of course.
 
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