cut off

[Jim W in Tampa]

I have accidently shorted out 277 and it can easily burn #12 open from an arc. I really will only work it live if conditions are safe and is needed. The call is mine alone.

 

[e57]

I do service changes, 120/240v hot. I cut the drop and then reconnect it at the end of the day, but thats because my POCO is.... worthless.

Other than service changes.. I see no reason to work hot. It just isnt necessary in a resi situation.

~Matt

Y'know, if we had more electricians like you, we'd have fewer electricians like you.

I'll vouch for the POCO (PG&E) issue - you would never get another oveer-head service change done again - for any amount of money - if we had to wait for PG&E to show up.... It could take weeks and mile of red-tape - reconnect could take years! Under-ground they pay a little more attention to.... I have tried the process to get them to come cut over-head - and basically had a dispatcher tell me - 'do what you gatta do....' Paper work is 6-8 weeks, just to get a Rep out to tell you have 6-8 weeks for a crew to get the paper work to schedule 6-8 weeks out. So yes - if the drop does not need to move - I cut & reconnect it too.

 

[daleuger]

I try to avoid it if at all possible but that's not always the case. Comfort level really depends on what it is. Would one feel more comfortable changing out a breaker with the main on and the buses hot as opposed to say swapping out a switch hot or cutting and splicing and splicing service drops? Who's to say if it's necessary or just convenient at the time.

I was working with the owner of the co once doing a service change. He threatened to just tape up the drops hot and jerk a 4 gang meter pack off the wall hot if the poco didn't show up soon and pull the cutouts. Had he decided to do that I'd have been just as liable to jerk my tools into the back of my truck. I get that time = money when you're an EC but I'd prefer to know for sure I'm going home tonight. JMHO

 

[TOOL_5150]

I'll vouch for the POCO (PG&E) issue - you would never get another oveer-head service change done again - for any amount of money - if we had to wait for PG&E to show up.... It could take weeks and mile of red-tape - reconnect could take years! Under-ground they pay a little more attention to.... I have tried the process to get them to come cut over-head - and basically had a dispatcher tell me - 'do what you gatta do....' Paper work is 6-8 weeks, just to get a Rep out to tell you have 6-8 weeks for a crew to get the paper work to schedule 6-8 weeks out. So yes - if the drop does not need to move - I cut & reconnect it too.

I was told by a PG&E lineman: "Dont call us for disconnects and reconnects for overhead services, youre an electrician, you can cut and reconnect the line safely. Dont call us until youre reconnected and finaled, then just call for a meter seal."

I was shocked [pun intended] Since then, I havent called them for an OH service change. The guy made it clear it was not needed for him to come out and reconnect the service. I have a friend that needed a service change a few days before thanksgiving - his meter socket was ready to go into meltdown. I called for a reconnect, and they told me 1 week. I asked"so my customer will not have power for the next week?" i was basically told to 'do what I have to do' and they will be there in a week.

Larry, I sure hope your POCO is more cooperative, because if you are leaving your customers without power for weeks, or even days, your customers will be quite limited.

I, as an electrician, do what needs to be done safely, within my own limits. I have the proper equipment to cut and reconnect an OH drop safely - so I do it when needed. Heck, I use more PPE than our POCO linemen. They dont even use voltage rated gloves, they just use leather gloves.

Condensed version: My POCO sucks, I cut and connect resi services when needed, I use PPE.

~Matt

 

[chevyx92]

That's by far one of the dumbest things I have ever read on this forum.

You mean to tell me that "You" can't twist (2) #12's together when hot? Only when dead?

 

[360Youth]

You mean to tell me that "You" can't twist (2) #12's together when hot? Only when dead?

Now you know you are talking about two different scenarios. Keep it sensible or you will never help your argument.

 

[zog]

will working on live 208v/200a kill me less than 208v with more than 200a available?

Nope, load has nothing to do with it. Shock hazards are based on the voltage drop across the body. Arc flash is based on the duration of the arc and the amount of available fault current.

 

[zog]

Why cause you have been brain washed into a false pretense of how electrical work is done? Things are worked hot everyday with no problems. Its guys like you that condescend on the guys who work things hot.

According to the BLS, in the US, in the workplace alone, 2,000 arc flash victim are sent to burn units and 1,200 electrical worked are killed from electrical contact accidents each year.

So while some have no problems, about 3 are electrcuted and 4-5 end up in burn units each day. With your attitude you are a statistic waiting to happen.

 

[Hendrix]

I was told by a PG&E lineman: "Dont call us for disconnects and reconnects for overhead services, youre an electrician, you can cut and reconnect the line safely. Dont call us until youre reconnected and finaled, then just call for a meter seal."




~Matt

So, do all the EC's out there own bucket trucks ??????

 

[360Youth]

I was told by a PG&E lineman: "Dont call us for disconnects and reconnects for overhead services, youre an electrician, you can cut and reconnect the line safely. Dont call us until youre reconnected and finaled, then just call for a meter seal."

I was shocked [pun intended] Since then, I havent called them for an OH service change. The guy made it clear it was not needed for him to come out and reconnect the service. I have a friend that needed a service change a few days before thanksgiving - his meter socket was ready to go into meltdown. I called for a reconnect, and they told me 1 week. I asked"so my customer will not have power for the next week?" i was basically told to 'do what I have to do' and they will be there in a week.

Larry, I sure hope your POCO is more cooperative, because if you are leaving your customers without power for weeks, or even days, your customers will be quite limited.

I, as an electrician, do what needs to be done safely, within my own limits. I have the proper equipment to cut and reconnect an OH drop safely - so I do it when needed. Heck, I use more PPE than our POCO linemen. They dont even use voltage rated gloves, they just use leather gloves.

Condensed version: My POCO sucks, I cut and connect resi services when needed, I use PPE.

~Matt

I would be on the phone with someone. I may be able to make the reconnect but I know for sure I am not properly equiped. Those are the POCO responsibility and it would not take long to have that attitude changed. Let the customer go without power for any unnecessary length of time and we'll see how long it lasts.

 

[LarryFine]

Larry, I sure hope your POCO is more cooperative, because if you are leaving your customers without power for weeks, or even days, your customers will be quite limited.

If you mean me, no, I don't leave them powerless. Here, the POCO is responsible for providing and installing everything on the line side of the meter, from the POA to the meter line terminals.

We just jumper from the old meter base (which is effectively our disconnect point) to the load terminals of the new one, and plug the meter back into the old base when we're done, so they have power.

The POCO comes back after release from the inspector, they remove the old meter and jumper, and install the new cable from the POA to the new meter base (which the POCO also supplies.)

 

[wireguru]

Nope, load has nothing to do with it. Shock hazards are based on the voltage drop across the body. Arc flash is based on the duration of the arc and the amount of available fault current.

i know. i was making a point about how ridiculous the options in the poll are.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I do service changes, 120/240v hot. I cut the drop and then reconnect it at the end of the day, but thats because my POCO is.... worthless.

Other than service changes.. I see no reason to work hot. It just isnt necessary in a resi situation.

~Matt

I'm like Matt. I have only ever done one service change dead and the was because the wires were 20' to short and the POCO cut them and then when I was don came in and installed new lines.

SCE, our POCO, and LADWP which is next door basically do not deenergize resi service changes.

 

[chevyx92]

Now you know you are talking about two different scenarios. Keep it sensible or you will never help your argument.

Thats the whole point. I was never talking about safety what so ever. I was just stating that a guy(some cant) can work things hot just as easily as dead. Example like before, twisting (2) #12's together hot or dead. You're still gonna do it the same way. Of course you know what your dealing with when working with live circuits.

 

[chevyx92]

According to the BLS, in the US, in the workplace alone, 2,000 arc flash victim are sent to burn units and 1,200 electrical worked are killed from electrical contact accidents each year.

So while some have no problems, about 3 are electrcuted and 4-5 end up in burn units each day. With your attitude you are a statistic waiting to happen.

Blah, blah, blah. If you were to have read the thread you would know I wasn't talking about the safety aspect like everyone seems to like to throw out there when its not the topic. It was an arguement that a guy can just as easy twist some wires together live or dead. You're not gonna twist them any different because they are hot.

 

[zog]

Blah, blah, blah. If you were to have read the thread you would know I wasn't talking about the safety aspect like everyone seems to like to throw out there when its not the topic. It was an arguement that a guy can just as easy twist some wires together live or dead. You're not gonna twist them any different because they are hot.

Don't blah, blah me. I read the thread, I was replying to your post

Why cause you have been brain washed into a false pretense of how electrical work is done? Things are worked hot everyday with no problems. Its guys like you that condescend on the guys who work things hot.

People get wasted at a bar and drive home everyday with "no problems" too, does that make it right? No, it dosent, thats why there are laws against it, just like there are OSHA rules against working hot. So don't tell someone like iwire (Who knows what he is talking about) he is being condesending, and turn around and make a condescending remark like "blah, blah, blah".

 

[e57]

I would be on the phone with someone. I may be able to make the reconnect but I know for sure I am not properly equipped. Those are the POCO responsibility and it would not take long to have that attitude changed. Let the customer go without power for any unnecessary length of time and we'll see how long it lasts.

You could literally talk to you're blue in the face - unless you 'lie' and say there is a lost neutral - you won't get anyone near it for quite a while. And I have done just that - the result was the POCO lineman "Oh I see the problem...." Then instead of connecting it, turned away and left, while it would have taken two minutes to connect - already in the bucket and up there... Then you're forced to "temp it up" until the POCO can come do their "permanent connection". (crimped barrel spice) Some EC's just will just use a blue wire nut - I KID YOU NOT! I have seen temp'ed up OH drops stay that way for years! So I at least do it in a method that will last and can carry the full load... The same crimp the POCO uses...(page 11) Or these. I used to split-bolt 'em but find it too much effort, and exposure. The only reason they get ticked if you do UG ones is you might accidentally cut someone else off... Or expose their conductors to rain water... For that - you can plan to wait for at least a month or two.

And yes - I rarely spot any of the linemen use any PPE short of some short general work gloves for 240/120 services, some often bare hand it - with no OCP, and a few feet from the transformer... (Oh they'll have a hard hat on in the bucket at the pole - but often will not if on a ladder...)

 

[PetrosA]

I have to work services hot in this area and if using my bosses tools, that means using metal handled crimpers (I think they're about 40 years old) - no PPE supplied by boss. I've started buying my own stuff like gloves and liners, but it doesn't come cheap on an electrician's salary. A full kit is about a week's take-home pay when we have a full 40 hour week. I would like to see POCOs that force electrician's to work lines hot at least give us access to their bulk buying power for PPE by letting us go to a "POCO store" to get things like PPE, rubber mats etc. at a discount that working on live meters and lines requires as well as giving us access to their testing facilities for certifying our PPE on a regular basis.

I think working hot in resi is common for a number of reasons. Panels are rarely marked well which makes shutting a single circuit difficult and time consuming. Shutting the whole house down opens other cans of worms especially if the owner is out and computers are on. With more and more plastic boxes in use, the danger of contacting a grounded surface while swapping a device is lessened. So I think SOME work can be done reasonably safely on hot lines if the proper precautions are taken, while other work can't. There is no way I'd swap or install a garbage disposal outlet under a sink while hot since to do it you're in a cramped position with no means of escape, but I feel comfortable swapping a switch in the wall hot.

One tool I recently came up for working in houses with poorly marked panels is a simple one. I took a two wire lamp cord and hooked it up to a toggle switch. I call it the "Tripper" and I think you can guess what it's for

 

[e57]

One tool I recently came up for working in houses with poorly marked panels is a simple one. I took a two wire lamp cord and hooked it up to a toggle switch. I call it the "Tripper" and I think you can guess what it's for

Truthfully - you are better off working hot - naked.... Than what 'could happen' with your "TRIPPER".... :roll:

What if the circuit does NOT TRIP? Other than a switch expolding in your hand, or the burns recieved from when the zip cord vaporizes - you could very well also burn the house down by igniting the wiring inside the walls... Do yourself a favor and chop the "tripper" into 1" peices.


Then do or get one or more of the following:

1. A helper, schmuck, passer-by or helpfull client.
2. A circuit tracer.
3. A skil-saw
4. A boom-box.
5. A clue...
6. A clamp-on ammeter
7. A cell phone.
8. A 1200W space heater.
9. A plug, wire, door bell transformer, and bell. Or a 120V 6~10" fire bell.
10. Some training on the results of short circuits.
11. Some imagination about how to do this safer.

In the past when short of a circuit tracer which can lead to a false positive on which breaker it might be - I have used some imaginitive ways to find breakers that while they may seem hokey - they are 1000% safer than tripping the circuit reguardless of the tripping method.

A 120v fire bell - just plug it in, and shut off breakers until it goes off.... Much like the boom-box method but makes everyone love you enough to allow you to shut off the main in order not to work hot....

Helper or any schmoe with a cell phone to tell you it is off will save you a few trips up and down stairs.

Fool proof method I find more reliable than the circuit tracer is to either have a helper operate a large motor or inductive load while I amp out the phase, and then every breaker on that phase.... A while back I had a client refuse to let me shut off any circuit unless I was 100% sure I had the right one. So, I had my schmuck rev up a skil-saw in his office while I found which phase the skil-saw was on, then which breaker of that phase it was on while I watched the ammeter numbers jump everytime he started it when I was on the circuit path. Effective yes, annoying - oh yeah.... :roll:

 

[iMuse97]

Like 57, I have had to develop the art of annoying customers and still have them think I'm doing them a favor. I will work hot with effective and appropriate PPE, but only when absolutely necessary, when I cannot find another way to mitigate the risks.

I cannot vote in this poll because the categories are not ones I use to determine when I would work hot.

BTW, I used to do work live to "save my job," and then saw the stupidity of that.