Home inspections

[charlietuna]

Well put Rsolel,
And i think most here agree with your points. As i said, what upsets me the most is when the HI writes up a "none issue"! And you are right in evaluating that the cheapest inspector gets the job and probably knows the least! When the HI trade first began, i know certain realtors in my area would use the same HI, and the inspection fee was usually a set figure with a bonus incentive on the dollar value of the items he could find. To me it was just a method to beat the seller's price down. Many times we would be called to evaluate or price out these items for a seller. Too many times we would be following behind the same inspector and his report was like it was "rubber stamped". And many times we would find serious problems overlooked by the inspector, almost like they only look at those items which were mentioned in the HI classroom. Not many homebuyers could afford to call out individual trades to inspect a purchase, so maybe there is a place for these inspections?? But what did we do before HOME INSPECTORS"? This is why i consider them a waste of money. Nowdays, the realtor trys to sell the seller on having the house inspected by HI's prior to being placed on the market, saying it makes the house "more sellable" to prospective buyers! They even have a buyer's insurance policy the seller can purchase for the buyer?? Other than the installation of ground faults, i see no use for home inspections, and then consider that about 60% of ground faults don't work makes it sensless !

 

[pfalcon]

Rsole helped get things on the right track about HIs.

I kept hearing that home inspections are only to lower the price of the house. The HIs I use find real problems. My view is that the HI keeps the seller from jacking the price of the house by leaving defects. I ought to pay less when the roof isn't sealed correctly. I've yet to see an asking price that said "and $500 off for the bad roof" before the HI found it.

Rsole and I could do good business together. I want reliable not cheap.

Whether HI or EL or HVAC or whatever, you get both what you pay for and what you understand. If you don't understand why you are using an HI then you won't get what you need.

As Rsole stated: If it's falling off the wall then I expect him to tell me I need it replaced. If it looks suspect then I expect him to tell me to hire a licensed professional to inspect it. I shouldn't get cheated by hidden defects in a house. That's not "lowering the price"; that's protecting me from overpaying for bad merchandise.

 

[charlietuna]

Question : It continues to come up here that Zinsco and FPE panels are "UN-INSURABLE" --- can someone tell me where i can find out additional information on this ? Is it just residential or also commercial ? Thanks

 

[LarryFine]

As i said, what upsets me the most is when the HI writes up a "none issue"!

Not I. They can be dismissed with a simple correction letter. The only non-issue that is regularly and correctly pointed out is the dreaded "double-tap" in a panel.

Often, they completely mis-quote the NEC and point out a "serious hazard" such as an SE cable that passes within 3' of a window, even if the POA is above the opening.

My prpblem with HI's is when they give rave reviews about recently-installed 200a service upgrades that soon-after caused a week-long power outage or a fire.

I was involved in each of the above scenarios (after the fact, of course!) a few years ago, the last two of which were obviously non-permitted or inspected upgrades.

The simple give-away was the original old 60- or 100-amp cable from the POA to the meter, plus zero cable clamps, or zero grounding, or zero panel labeling, or . . .

Don't get me started! :roll:

 

[ty]

It was mentioned that there was a problem with the inspector saying that an FPE panel needed to be replaced. If he said that, he was wrong. A good home inspector will only say that something needs to be replaced if it is broken and falling off the wall. When I see an FPE (or Zinsco ) panel, I call it out as a problem. I provide the customer with information about them and recommend that they at least get it inspected further by a qualified electrician. If I didn't, they would likely be very upset when they tried to get insurance and found that the insurance company would not provide coverage until the panel was replaced.

Is this HI propaganda or maybe found in certain areas?
There are many, many old FPE and Zinsco panels still in use around here in older homes, and I see plenty of peple getting mortgages and home owners insurance.

BTW, rsole, I like saying your name fast.

 

[cschmid]

On track???? He helped clarify that HI's do electrical work (inspections) to inspect a panel is electrical work..If it is not electrical work then what need is there for electrical inspectors..just to inspect rough ins...I still say if you are accepting cash for electrical work then you should fall under electrical regulation. Inspecting a panel and generating a report on electrical equipment and receiving cash = electrical work.

 

[roger]

On track???? He helped clarify that HI's do electrical work (inspections) to inspect a panel is electrical work..If it is not electrical work then what need is there for electrical inspectors..just to inspect rough ins...I still say if you are accepting cash for electrical work then you should fall under electrical regulation. Inspecting a panel and generating a report on electrical equipment and receiving cash = electrical work.

You really need to get over this.

It doesn't bother me at all that there is a market for HI's. I believe they offer a real service and they don't threaten me at all.


With that said, since you don't like them doing business in your state maybe you should take your concerns to your government officials. :roll:

After you do that let us know what they think.

Roger

 

[ty]

On track???? He helped clarify that HI's do electrical work (inspections) to inspect a panel is electrical work..If it is not electrical work then what need is there for electrical inspectors..just to inspect rough ins...I still say if you are accepting cash for electrical work then you should fall under electrical regulation. Inspecting a panel and generating a report on electrical equipment and receiving cash = electrical work.

I just don't agree with you that HI's are doing Electrical work.
I do believe they are doing Electrical Inspections.

I do NOT believe that Electrical Inspections is the same as Electrical Work.


In My STATE, one must posess an Electrical Inspection License to perform Electrical Inspections.
Others' States may be different.
Just sayin'.

 

[cschmid]

roger I am over it trust me..I must not be conveying myself good enough here. this is not solely about HI's it is about where do we draw the line..what do others classify as electrical work? I feel HI's have their place but to have them influence banks on loans no way, for them to create paper work that relators put with you file on a house is wrong.

When you buy a used car and take it to your mechanic then his opinion influences you on whether you buy the car, yet he does not create a file that is associated with your car that others can view..So why do HI's get that privilege especially when there is so much disparity between inspectors..If you hire an HI then it is your business and no one else's..So why is there report such a big deal especially to the real estate agent?

So If it is Hi's we can go there so lets get back to the issue what do we classify electrical work and why? So only few say that inspection is not electrical work what do the inspectors say..Is inspecting a panel and saying it needs to be replaced electrical work?

 

[roger]

So If it is Hi's we can go there so lets get back to the issue what do we classify electrical work and why? So only few say that inspection is not electrical work what do the inspectors say..Is inspecting a panel and saying it needs to be replaced electrical work?

Do you work on your vehicles? If so, are you trained and certified to do brake work or front end work on them? If you are, who inspects your work? Are they scholars in brakes and front ends? Are you taking work from those who are professionals in these areas? Where should they draw the line?

Roger

 

[cschmid]

Do you work on your vehicles? If so, are you trained and certified to do brake work or front end work on them? If you are, who inspects your work? Are they scholars in brakes and front ends? Are you taking work from those who are professionals in these areas? Where should they draw the line?

Roger

LOL Now you are trying to confuse the issue it is not about the owner doing his own repairs or even about buying or selling..It is about what others classify as electrical work? If you receive cash for doing an inspection of a panel is that electrical work? or for that matter what qualifications do you need to inspect?

In Mn it says you must be either a journeymen or master electrician registered with the state and licensed, bonded and insured..I feel again if you test and inspect and receive cash for electrical work you are doing electrical contracting. Yet if others feel the same they are not answering..

SO questions to moderators..If I can create a survey can you approve it and add it to this thread?

 

[charlietuna]

AGAIN: Question : It continues to come up here that Zinsco and FPE panels are "UN-INSURABLE" --- can someone tell me where i can find out additional information on this ? Is it just residential or also commercial ? Thanks

 

[cschmid]

AGAIN: Question : It continues to come up here that Zinsco and FPE panels are "UN-INSURABLE" --- can someone tell me where i can find out additional information on this ? Is it just residential or also commercial ? Thanks

As far as I know they are insurable..I have read several things in this post and none are true in our neck of the woods..lenders do not require home inspections just appraisals. Insurance company has normal operations here pay monthly fee house insured. just make sure you have all the appropriate options. The real issue is there are many out there and still functioning properly..So are the reports over stated so as to increase business to replace these panels..I do not know..I do know that no equipment that I know of was designed for forever use.. the real Issue was it designed to be upgraded or replace with same size materials..off track again..

 

[charlietuna]

This IS and/or should be a prime example of "Home Inspectors" writing up "NONE ISSUES" ! Above we have a HI who claims to have all kinds of background education in home construction, plus many hours of schooling, and admits to writing in his report that FPE and Zinsco are so bad they are "uninsurable"! And i believe Resole is a darn good inspector and takes pride in his work and reports. But just consider the problems his report can generate if it is never challenged ? Who would buy this house without the ability to "insure" it ! Only someone with "cash"! The seller isn't knowledgable enough in electrical manufacturing "RUMARS" to challenge this professional report, so he hires one of us to replace a perfectly good installation. This is actually good for our business--but i don't like it!

I don't consider, what these inspectors do as "electrical work" ! But i do know that MANY will do the necessary electrical work "on the side" to correct a home's problems. Too many times we are called to correct items in these reports and find the easier items have been corrected by "THE INSPECTOR's COMPANY" ?? I can understand the reasoning of a roofing inspection and a termite inspection. But not a electrical system inspection. Most house wiring installations are correct from the start and where the problem's arise is in the area of additions,home owner fan and light installs,outside outlets, and the BIG one is code compliance on GFIC's! The biggest issue here is grounding. And not many "Home Inspectors" understand it and are not trained in this area. This is life threatening ! Consider how many homes are inspected that have pools or spas? I think these reports leave a new homeowner with a false sense of security. Not only in the electrical area but also structual and other life threatening areas. This can't be taught in 200 hours of classroom time.

An example of how bad this gets , consider an 85 year old widow who just lost her husband and wants to move to a smaller home. The realtor brings in a HI and he opens the panel and see's that all the branch circuits are wired with aluminum conductors! His report states that "aluminum wiring is illegal"! What does this lady know ? The lady hired a contractor who charged her $5,000. to repull the entire home's branch circuits. Was there a full week!
Who controls what HI's do? Some are good, and many are bad ! The local inspection department doesn't oversee them, the realtor or home buyer or seller doesn't know the difference???? I am not bad mouthing them--they make us money -- but i respect the rights of people and hate to see people get ripped off !

 

[rsole]

As far as I know they are insurable..I have read several things in this post and none are true in our neck of the woods..lenders do not require home inspections just appraisals. Insurance company has normal operations here pay monthly fee house insured. just make sure you have all the appropriate options. The real issue is there are many out there and still functioning properly..So are the reports over stated so as to increase business to replace these panels..I do not know..I do know that no equipment that I know of was designed for forever use.. the real Issue was it designed to be upgraded or replace with same size materials..off track again..

Here in Florida most insurance companies require a 4 Point Inspection (roof, A/C, Plumbing and Electrical) if you are getting insurance on an older home. Most of the insurers will not write policies if the home has an FPE or Zinsco electrical panel. Many times the only option is to get the insurance through Citizens which has a much higher rate. I have been asked by the insurance agents to reinspect a home after the panel has been changed so the homeowner could save $500 or more on their policy.

Yes you can get insurance but it will cost substantially more.

 

[rsole]

Rsole nicely put..

cf You are clear with your stand..but others are on the fence..

Lmao this is still an interesting conversation.

lets be clear I have no issue with HVAC guys hooking up to existing wiring as long as they have their work inspected. I also have no issue with sheet rock guys removing lights to re do sheet rock as long as they do not reposition them. I also do not care about handy manny replacing outlets either to match the room..

I am still wondering where we draw the line and what is ethical in our trade?

Rsole so how much does an average house inspection cost? What liabilities do you have with an HI inspection? Rsole you are also not the norm in the HI business or at least not around here..

How much do you think home inspectors have driven the price of housing up? Do you think you add extra to the house just to cover the hassle? what about the foreclosure market do you think HI's are beneficial there?

I have lots of questions and my opinion has not been changed yet.

Sorry I took a while to respond.

I charge by the square footage of the home. For example, a 200 SF home, I would charge $300 for the inspection. I have yet to be sued by anyone because I do my best to make them understand that I can only report on what I see. I also tell them that the systems of a home are like your car. If it starts and runs to get your to work, it is working properly at that time, although it might not start when you get ready to go home. It is a good analogy that helps them understand that things do go wrong. They also see that I spent a lot of time and effort to do a good job for them.

There are people that will have the home inspected and not close on it for several weeks (or months). They move in and something doesn't work. Of course if the home inspector had done his job he would have know that it would fail??? It worked when I tested it. For example, the air conditioner is 15 years old and it still works, the temperatures are within range etc. I will report that it worked as expected. I have no way of knowing that the compressor is ready to go (it might have even been a power surge). Now they file a law suite and want me to pay $4000 to $5000 for the new unit (after paying me $300 for the inspection). It will end up costing more to fight the law suite than to pay. The insurance company is going to pay to save the cost of litigation.

As to home inspectors driving the cost of home up, I do not thing that is true. You have several thousand dollars going to the real estate agent, several thousand dollars going to the closing costs and a couple of hundred going to the home inspector. When you put it into perspective, it is a very small part of the cost.

For that $300, you have someone who is taking a good hard look at the home (all the parts not just one) and can let you know that you will have to plan on spending a few thousand dollars to replace a defective air conditioner or the the ductwork in the attic is falling apart and will cost you a fortune in electricity or damage the ceilings if it is not fixed. Yes he is probably going to tell you that you still need to have an electrician check or repair some things (or an HVAC contractor or plumber) but I am pointing out things that the average home buyer would never know was a problem until it completely failed and ended up costing a fortune in damage to boot. Knowing that information can let the buyer make a better decision as to whether or not the home is the right one for them or not.

As an a example, a couple of months ago, I did an inspection for a first time home buyer. They found a home they liked and they were stretching their budget to buy it. When I finished with the outside, I pointed out the the roof was completely shot and would need to be replaced (including some of the roof decking that was rotted out) right away, the wood siding was rotting in several areas and would need repairs to prevent water leaks. They had me stop the inspection because they would not be able to afford to replace the roof. They had understood that the roof was fine and if they had not had an inspection, they would have had a difficult time once they owned the home and it started leaking. In that case I saved them many times what I charged them.

As to foreclosures, some are good and some are in terrible shape. Keep in mind that most people out there have no idea what they are looking at on a home. They need someone who knows what to look for to give them a better understanding of the true condition of the home to make an informed decision. So yes, I believe there is value in having the home inspected.

I enjoy helping people and would not be doing this job if I didn't feel that I was providing a benefit to my customers. I have talked people out of inspections (mostly mold inspections) because it was not going to give them enough benefit to cover their cost. (Yeah, I am a lousy salesman sometimes).

As I said before, there are bad inspectors out there just as with any trade. I am sure you have seen some really crappy work done by some of your "licensed" colleagues too. A good home inspector (just as a good electrician or whatever) is going to provide a benefit to their customers. A bad one will make all the rest look bad.

 

[cschmid]

rsole I can see things will be changing in the future here then..it normally take awhile for the trickle down effect to get here..

 

[charlietuna]

Sorry Resole, you are posting more misinformation. I have lived in Florida since 1952 and owned six houses, built four of them myself and have never had an insurance company come inside EXCEPT for CITIZENS when they estimated the damage from Hurricane Wilma ($78,000.00 worth). The house i recently built(2007), is insured by State Farm, which was 40% cheaper than Citizen's price, and the policy was bought over the phone without a representative ever coming out ! Only questions were about the structure,roof,square feet. I had Citizens Insurance in my last house for 14 years, they were a "STATE POOL INSURANCE COMPANY" due to all the companies pulling out after hurricane Andrew. They never asked nor looked at my last house. There are hundreds of thousands homes in Florida with FPE and Zinsco service equipment operating every day without a problem. If there was a REAL problem with their equipment it would have been re-called like the FPE commercial breakers were back in the eighties.

I am a certified infrared thermographer, been in this business since 1989 doing commercial buildings and you would be suprised at the number of buildings operating on FPE and Zinsco gear. And i can honestly say they have about the same number of problems as other manufacturers. If your in the trade long enough, you'll see they all have their problems.

 

[rsole]

This IS and/or should be a prime example of "Home Inspectors" writing up "NONE ISSUES" ! Above we have a HI who claims to have all kinds of background education in home construction, plus many hours of schooling, and admits to writing in his report that FPE and Zinsco are so bad they are "uninsurable"! And i believe Resole is a darn good inspector and takes pride in his work and reports. But just consider the problems his report can generate if it is never challenged ? Who would buy this house without the ability to "insure" it ! Only someone with "cash"! The seller isn't knowledgable enough in electrical manufacturing "RUMARS" to challenge this professional report, so he hires one of us to replace a perfectly good installation. This is actually good for our business--but i don't like it!

I don't consider, what these inspectors do as "electrical work" ! But i do know that MANY will do the necessary electrical work "on the side" to correct a home's problems. Too many times we are called to correct items in these reports and find the easier items have been corrected by "THE INSPECTOR's COMPANY" ?? I can understand the reasoning of a roofing inspection and a termite inspection. But not a electrical system inspection. Most house wiring installations are correct from the start and where the problem's arise is in the area of additions,home owner fan and light installs,outside outlets, and the BIG one is code compliance on GFIC's! The biggest issue here is grounding. And not many "Home Inspectors" understand it and are not trained in this area. This is life threatening ! Consider how many homes are inspected that have pools or spas? I think these reports leave a new homeowner with a false sense of security. Not only in the electrical area but also structual and other life threatening areas. This can't be taught in 200 hours of classroom time.

An example of how bad this gets , consider an 85 year old widow who just lost her husband and wants to move to a smaller home. The realtor brings in a HI and he opens the panel and see's that all the branch circuits are wired with aluminum conductors! His report states that "aluminum wiring is illegal"! What does this lady know ? The lady hired a contractor who charged her $5,000. to repull the entire home's branch circuits. Was there a full week!
Who controls what HI's do? Some are good, and many are bad ! The local inspection department doesn't oversee them, the realtor or home buyer or seller doesn't know the difference???? I am not bad mouthing them--they make us money -- but i respect the rights of people and hate to see people get ripped off !

Charlietuna, Take a look at this site and tell me that you would be willing to take one of those FPE panels and install it in your home where your wife and children sleep. In addition, see my post above and tell me that I should not mention that they are likely to have to pay several hundred dollars a year more to insure the home. that would not be performing a service to my customers.

As to aluminum wiring, it is not illegal and if it is properly installed and never overloaded (who would ever plug in a power strip in an old home just because it does not have enough outlets and load that strip up?), it will perform fine. The problem comes when it has been overloaded numerous times and the connections get loose and corroded. Then they overheat. I do not tell people that they have to do anything. I do tell them that the insurance company will require an 4 Point inspection that will say that the home has aluminum branch circuits and that many insurance companies will either not provide coverage or will charge substantially more to provide the coverage.

Most of the insurance companies will charge a much higher rate unless the aluminum wiring is replaced or has been retrofitted (and they will only accept copalum connections which can only be done by a few electricians (you have to be specially trained to make the retrofit). The nearest electricain to here that I know of that can do the copalum is about 150 miles away. Am I doing a service to the customer if I do not tell tham that?

I agree that you can not learn everything in 200 hours of classroom training. I have that plus 20+ years in construction plus several years in the steel industry (part of that time supervising electricians) and I still do not know everything. I do keep trying to learn more. Maybe you can enlighten me on some of it.

As to the home inspector making repairs, all inspection organizations prohibit the inspector from doing any repairs (even if he is qualified or licensed) on a home that he inspects for 1 year after the inspection. (See section 1.11 in the NACHI code of ethics). That way we do not have a conflict of interest. I tend to be more skeptical of a contractor making an inspection when he stands to benefit from telling someone they have a problem and then charging them for the repairs. That is not implying that all contractors are going to do that, but you and I know that many do.

As to the local building inspection monitoring home inspectors. I worked as a Quality Control Manager for a couple of builders for about 7 years. One of the biggest pains I had was telling superintendents that something needed corrected when the building inspector has already signed off on the inspection. Just because the inspector signed off on it doesn't mean that it is to code or safe.

I'll be the first to admit that I do not know everything. I continue to learn and improve but I do believe that I can find most things that are going to cause problems after someone closes on the home.

 

[iwire]

This IS and/or should be a prime example of "Home Inspectors" writing up "NONE ISSUES" !

To me if I am buying a home there is nothing about the home that is a 'non issue'. If I hire someone to look at a home and provide a report I want to hear about every detail; than it is between me (the buyer) and the seller to decide if it is an issue or not.