6 disconnect rule violation?

[roger]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

It was just a question Dave, sorry if you were offended. I'm really not surprised at your response though.

It seems to me that those who abuse thier power by making thier own rules are insulting the CMP members who's blood sweat and tears go into an making an article don't you think?


If the shoe fits.

Roger

 

[geezer]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

no kidding. So what is it you are addressing, that you make up your own rules or what?

Shorter this time please.

OK. Shorter. No, I don't make up my own rules.
Did you really read my last post, or do you not understand what I wrote?

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

I think if we knew what the listing of the panel was it would help a great deal.
Many small residential ML panelboards are not suitable for use as service equipment when used as a lighting / appliance panelboard , therefore could not be used as the disconnect , in this case it remains a mystery.

 

[iwire]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Originally posted by geezer:
Shorter this time please.

OK. Shorter. No, I don't make up my own rules.[/QUOTE]

Then who's rules are they?

A disconnecting means is not by any stretch of the imagination a pole space in a panel.

That is an indisputable fact.

It is also indisputable that the code section makes no mention of the number of pole spaces in a panel.

Those being facts my only conclusion is you have not read the sections or you are making your own rules.

 

[benaround]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

mvannevel,

You are the man,that is exactly what it says,thank you for that post.

 

[roger]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Geezer, I apologize to you in that I am still replying to your earlier stance regardless of your last post, and yes, as a matter of fact, I understand what you were saying in your last post but that doesn't change my opinion of what you are doing.

IMO you know that 6 breakers are allowed in a 42 circuit panel for this use.

You didn't have the courtesy to answer my question as to the 200 amp fused disconnect feeding a 125 amp load, (or if you did I missed it) the fuses could be changed in the future as easy as adding a breaker to a panel couldn't it?

So what do you do in this scenario and what reasoning do you use to justify you stance in this scenario?

Roger

 

[jap2525]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

A single pole breaker in an 8 circuit MLO panel with the capability of more than 6 movements of the hand installed in it is not a violation.Someone could come along after and install (5) more single poles or (3) more 2poles or (2) more 3pole breakers if this were a 3 phase panel (doubtful) or any other combination adding up to less than (6) movements and still be within code.It is the installer who installs more than (6) movements of the hand in this panel that is violating the code.

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Originally posted by mvannevel:

[qb]

", we go back to 225.39 to look at the rating of the disconnect required. This is not a single family dwelling and we have more than two branch circuits, so the rating of the disconnecting means must be at least 60 amperes. For the sake of our example, let's say we've used a 100 ampere MLO panel. We've now met the requirement of 225.39. Note that we do not have to add up the handles here as there is not a requirement in 225 for us to do so like there is in 230.80.

(Edited for spelling)

I'm not sure??
Are you saying the panel rating is the same as the disconnect rating.(it seems to me they are two different things)

If I called the supply house and asked for a 100 amp disconnect and they sent a main lug panel rated at 100 amps do I have a disconnect ???
I think I still need a disconnect.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

What is required of the disconnecting means located at a remote building?

225.36 Suitable for Service Equipment.
The disconnecting means specified in 225.31 shall be suitable for use as service equipment.

What is service equipment?

100 Definitions
Service Equipment. The necessary equipment, usually consisting of a circuit breaker(s) or switch(es) and fuse(s) and their accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors to a building or other structure, or an otherwise designated area, and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of the supply.

How can we tell if a panel is rated as service equipment?

230 VI. Service Equipment ? Disconnecting Means
230.71 Maximum Number of Disconnects.
(A) General. The service disconnecting means for each service permitted by 230.2, or for each set of service-entrance conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception Nos. 1, 3, 4, or 5, shall consist of not more than six switches or sets of circuit breakers, or a combination of not more than six switches and sets of circuit breakers, mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard. There shall be not more than six sets of disconnects per service grouped in any one location. For the purpose of this section, disconnecting means used solely for power monitoring equipment, transient voltage surge suppressors, or the control circuit of the ground-fault protection system or power-operable service disconnecting means, installed as part of the listed equipment, shall not be considered a service disconnecting means.
(B) Single-Pole Units. Two or three single-pole switches or breakers, capable of individual operation, shall be permitted on multiwire circuits, one pole for each ungrounded conductor, as one multipole disconnect, provided they are equipped with handle ties or a master handle to disconnect all conductors of the service with no more than six operations of the hand.
FPN: See 408.36(A) for service equipment in panelboards, and see 430.95 for service equipment in motor control centers.

Just what does that FPN mean? Is it enforceable?

90.5(C) Explanatory Material. Explanatory material, such as references to other standards, references to related sections of this Code, or information related to a Code rule, is included in this Code in the form of fine print notes (FPNs). Fine print notes are informational only and are not enforceable as requirements of this Code.

But the references to related sections of this Code are enforceable.
The reference to 408.36(A) found in the FPN located in 230 VI. Service Equipment ? Disconnecting Means 230.71 Maximum Number of Disconnects is very enforceable.

Now add it all together. 225.36 states that the panel contains these six or less breakers shall be suitable for use as service equipment.
230.71 which is the section that describes just what a service disconnect is also refers us to the requirements found in 408.36(A) where we are allowed no more than two mains for the service disconnect.

The exception is for a sub panel feed by feeders and does not apply to this panel due to the fact that 225.36 requires to be rated as a service disconnect and not a sub panel.
I have never seen in 37 years of doing electrical work a service that was fed by a feeder. Every one of them has been fed by service entrance conductors.

These feeders feeding this panel that is rated as a service disconnect has no bearing at all on the outcome of the main disconnect outlined 408.36(A) simply because the panel is now a service and not a sub panel.

Some here keep falling back to the single-pole switches or breakers outlined in 225.33(B) and 230.71(B) with the pretense that this allows a single 120 volt circuit to be allowed as one of the disconnects.
I ask this question to them and await their answer. Would this not voliate 408.36(A) in a service panel?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

The exception is for a sub panel feed by feeders and does not apply to this panel due to the fact that 225.36 requires to be rated as a service disconnect and not a sub panel.

Mike! The panel at the detached building is not a service! Look at the definition!

Service Equipment. The necessary equipment, usually consisting of a circuit breaker(s) or switch(es) and fuse(s) and their accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors to a building or other structure, or an otherwise designated area, and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of the supply.

It has to be "suitable for service equipment." That does not make it service equipment. A pickup truck is suitable for hauling a piano. That does not make the pickup truck exclusively a piano hauler.

You're throwing yourself into a paradox of immeasureable scope - why would they go to all the trouble of writing the last half of 225 if it was already covered under the scope of 230?

How can we tell if a panel is rated as service equipment?

I don't know, but I will gamble that when the can is marked from the manufacturer as "Suitable For Use As Service Equipment", then we're on the right path.

230.71 which is the section that describes just what a service disconnect is also refers us to the requirements found in 408.36(A) where we are allowed no more than two mains for the service disconnect.

How do you get a main before the service disconnect?

Yada yada yada...

Would this not violate 408.36(A) in a service panel?

Yes, it would. I already said that, and admitted an error that I made when I was arguing with Kenny. I don't have time to look for it, it was just before you jumped back in on this. It's the post where I generated a one-line; one for a service, one for a detached building.

As long as you continue to confuse "disconnecting means" for "overcurrent protection" you will continue to misinterpret the sections related to this discussion.

I am not making this statement to undermine you. I am trying to get you to stop and look for the difference. With this latest post, you have muddied so much material, it's staggering.

1. Consider that the term "disconnecting means" does not involve "overcurrent protection".

2. Then, consider why you believe (despite the laws of physics) that the OCPD at the originating structure does not protect the remote panel from damage from overcurrent.

3. Look at

225.40 Access to Overcurrent Protective Devices. Where a feeder overcurrent device is not readily accessible, branch-circuit overcurrent devices shall be installed on the load side, shall be mounted in a readily accessible location, and shall be of a lower ampere rating than the feeder overcurrent device.

Let me paraphrase:

Where the originating OCPD for the outside feeder is not readily accessible, you will install an OCPD on the load side of the feeder in a readily accessible location, and it shall be rated lower so that it kicks before the one in the house that is not readily accessible.

If we're required to install an OCPD at the end of that feeder anyway, 225.40 would be completely, utterly, miserably pointless.

225.40 is sitting here telling you that otherwise an OCPD would not be required, Mike. Mull it over.

Take a deep breath.

 

[geezer]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

OK, I'll give it a shot.

First, I will assume that we have to have a disconnect at the second building. 225.32 (exceptions excluded)
Second, the disconnect is for the supply permitted by 225.30. 225.33 (A)
Third, the disconnect shall consist of not more than
six switches or six circuit breakers mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in a switchboard. 225.33(A)
A main lug panel which is not backfed through a main breaker has no supply disconnect located at the building (assuming feeder is directly to this panel from other building).
Branch circuit breakers do not control or disconnect the supply to the building or the main lug panel.
Whether you use one branch circuit or six, shutting them off does not disconnect the supply to the building.


Roger,

You didn't have the courtesy to answer my question as to the 200 amp fused disconnect feeding a 125 amp load, (or if you did I missed it) the fuses could be changed in the future as easy as adding a breaker to a panel couldn't it?

So what do you do in this scenario and what reasoning do you use to justify you stance in this scenario?

I didn't know that you addressed the question to me.
I think the 200 Amp fusible switch is OK.

[ November 30, 2005, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: geezer ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Originally posted by mvannevel:
[qb] Note that we do not have to add up the handles here as there is not a requirement in 225 for us to do so like there is in 230.80.

That's not a blessing, it's a curse.

They don't give us the method for determining the rating of the disconnecting means. Which means it falls back to 90.4. And that's just yucky bad code writing.

Marc wrote:
Are you saying the panel rating is the same as the disconnect rating.(it seems to me they are two different things)

Wholeheartedly agreed.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Geezer, with no sarcasm intended, what are you trying to say?

Everything you say is correct, but I fail to see exactly who you're addressing it to or what about.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

George did you ever think that the reason that the that the combined ratings of all the switches or circuit breakers outlined in 230.80 was omitted in 225 due to the fact that the panel is required to have a main disconnect as outlined in 408.36(A) when there are more than 10% of the circuits rated at 30 amps or less and that utilize the neutral?

Do you think that the feeders and branch circuit section completely nullifies section 408 and how it would relate to this panel board?

Do you think that a panel board installed in the remote building is exempted from all other sections of the code and bound only by 225?

Why do you think that the bonding and grounding electrodes are required at this remote building?

Do you think that the requirement for the disconnecting means to be rated as service equipment with all the grounding electrodes and other requirements sound vaguely like a service?

You seem to be hung up on the fact that a breaker does not fit the definition of a disconnecting means and you are bound to install a separate disconnect.

Well I have sit here and mulled it over and I stand pat on the sections that I have posted and tried to point out how they fit together.

225.36 clearly states that the disconnect is required to be rated as service equipment. When a panel board is installed it has to adhere to 408.36 just because it is a panel board and be rated as service equipment because this is required by 225.36.

You show me one listing on a main lug panel that that is rated as service equipment and does not require the panel to conform with the article on Switchboards and Panel boards and I will consider looking at this different.


Edited to add the words "main lug" to the last sentence.


[ November 29, 2005, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[hurk27]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

By geezer: A main lug panel which is not backfed through a main breaker has no supply disconnect located at the building (assuming feeder is directly to this panel from other building).
Branch circuit breakers do not control or disconnect the supply to the building or the main lug panel.

And puting a main breaker in this panel does? the supply conductor are still hot are they not???

225.31 Disconnecting Means.
Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.

Where is there a requirment to install a disconnect for any panelboard in the NEC???
remember a disconnect is not over current protection! it can have it in it, but its not the requirment when asked to install one.
A disconnect is nothing more than a switch, that has to be able to handle the load placed upon it.

225.32 Location.
The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For the purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be permitted to be utilized.

It can be installed inside! well that means that live conductors must come inside the building. So why can't the busbars in a panelboard be live before a disconnect??? there is no requirment to disconnect these busbars in the NEC. so why cant the disconnect's be installed to the busbars??

A look at 225.39 should clear this up:

225.39 Rating of Disconnect.
The feeder or branch-circuit disconnecting means shall have a rating of not less than the load to be carried, determined in accordance with Article 220. In no case shall the rating be lower than specified in 225.39(A), (B), (C), or (D).

remember it say's "OR"
Tell me, what is a branch circuit disconnect?

Branch Circuit. The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s).

H'MMM "the final overcurrent device"
It meets that.

Disconnecting Means. A device, or group of devices, or other means by which the conductors of a circuit can be disconnected from their source of supply.

can be disconnected from their source of supply.
It does that.

225.33 Maximum Number of Disconnects.
(A) General. The disconnecting means for each supply permitted by 225.30 shall consist of not more than six switches or six circuit breakers mounted in a single enclosure , in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard. There shall be no more than six disconnects per supply grouped in any one location.

Seems to allow mounting in a panelboard?

Panelboard. A single panel or group of panel units designed for assembly in the form of a single panel, including buses and automatic overcurrent devices, and equipped with or without switches for the control of light, heat, or power circuits; designed to be placed in a cabinet or cutout box placed in or against a wall, partition, or other support; and accessible only from the front.

equipped with or without switches for the control of light, heat, or power circuits;
Well if disconnects are switches then a panelboard can have them.

Switch, General-Use. A switch intended for use in general distribution and branch circuits . It is rated in amperes, and it is capable of interrupting its rated current at its rated voltage.

Well a disconnect definitly fits this discription.

All this just to show that the busbars in a panel are treated as an extention of the feeder feeding them, Again there is no requirment to install a disconnect ahead of a panelboard in the NEC.
Show me!

 

[hurk27]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

225.36 Suitable for Service Equipment.
The disconnecting means specified in 225.31 shall be suitable for use as service equipment.

It say's "suitable for use as service equipment"
It does not say it has to be service equipment as it can not be! it does not have to meet all the requirments of service equipment, it does not have to be rated as service equipment!
If it did you would be bonding the grounded conductor to the grounding conductor!!! and a few other requirments!
No this is not what "suitable for use as service equipment" even means!
It means just what the label says: It can be used as service equipment "IF" XXXXX is done.
This does not say that you must apply the requirments of service equipment to this panel,

 

[jwelectric]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Originally posted by hurk27
Where is there a requirment to install a disconnect for any panelboard in the NEC???
remember a disconnect is not over current protection! it can have it in it, but its not the requirment when asked to install one.
A disconnect is nothing more than a switch, that has to be able to handle the load placed upon it.

Well I will agree that a snap switch is a disconnect as well as a breaker or a cord and plug. There is an idea we can just use a cord and plug for the disconnecting means required in 225.31

The requirement for not more than two mains (disconnects) in a panel board can be found in 408.36 but I have already pointed this out.
It even goes so far as to say just how many single pole breakers (disconnects) that can be installed in it.

Originally posted by hurk27
A look at 225.39 should clear this up:
quote:

225.39 Rating of Disconnect.
The feeder or branch-circuit disconnecting means shall have a rating of not less than the load to be carried, determined in accordance with Article 220. In no case shall the rating be lower than specified in 225.39(A), (B), (C), or (D).

remember it say's "OR"
Tell me, what is a branch circuit disconnect?

Well it would be my guess that a branch circuit disconnect could be one to the devices outlined in the exception to 225.36 would work and it would still be a branch circuit as allowed in 225.39(A)

One other thing that might be confusing you with this article, a disconnect is not required to be a breaker although a breaker is a disconnect.

If you are installing a panel board in this remote building there is no escaping the requirements found in 408. The listing on a main lug panel will state that when it is used as service equipment it must conform with 408.

Originally posted by hurk27
All this just to show that the busbars in a panel are treated as an extention of the feeder feeding them, Again there is no requirment to install a disconnect ahead of a panelboard in the NEC.
Show me!

If this is a panel that is fed from some other panel you will find a disconnect (breaker) protection the feeders. If it is a main panel look around in there and you will see the main disconnect (breaker) I kept pointing out this disconnect being a breaker because we are discussing a panel board which only accepts breakers.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Originally posted by hurk27
quote:

225.36 Suitable for Service Equipment.
The disconnecting means specified in 225.31 shall be suitable for use as service equipment.

It say's "suitable for use as service equipment"
It does not say it has to be service equipment as it can not be! it does not have to meet all the requirments of service equipment, it does not have to be rated as service equipment!

Now one or the other of is has lost our minds or you made a error in this post.

It say's "suitable for use as service equipment"
, it does not have to be rated as service equipment!

Just what are you trying to say? Either it does or it doesn?t, which is it?

Originally posted by hurk27
If it did you would be bonding the grounded conductor to the grounding conductor!!! and a few other requirments!

Have you read 250.32 lately? I think you will find that a grounding electrode is required at the separate building just like at the service

Originally posted by hurk27
No this is not what "suitable for use as service equipment" even means!

I am opened minded to any explanation of what you think this means. Give it a shot and explain what suitablefor service equipment means. Please insert code references.

Edited to add: I will be up for about another thirty minutes before going to bed.


[ November 29, 2005, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Originally posted by jwelectric:
George did you ever think that the reason that the that the combined ratings of all the switches or circuit breakers outlined in 230.80 was omitted in 225 due to the fact that the panel is required to have a main disconnect as outlined in 408.36(A) when there are more than 10% of the circuits rated at 30 amps or less and that utilize the neutral?

408.36(A) does not require a main disconnect of any panel, at any time, for any reason, in any season. It requires overcurrent protection.

I posed a hypothesis as to this portion of the topic, and I don't have time this morning to find it and quote it. Let's let the "rating" issue simmer for now.

Do you think that the feeders and branch circuit section completely nullifies section 408 and how it would relate to this panel board?

No. But I can readily see that 408 makes no bones about having it's OCPD in another building. And 225.40 seems to collaborate with this theory.

Do you think that the requirement for the disconnecting means to be rated as service equipment with all the grounding electrodes and other requirements sound vaguely like a service?

"Sounds like" and "is" are two different things. Unless I misread that post, you believe the detached building's equipment is a service. If you believe that, you're dead wrong.

225.36 clearly states that the disconnect is required to be rated as service equipment. When a panel board is installed it has to adhere to 408.36 just because it is a panel board and be rated as service equipment because this is required by 225.36.

The panels have to comply with 408. They do.

A LABCPB cannot be used as a service disconnect without a main breaker in it, per 408.36. There are no overcurrent devices upstream from it. Therefore many panels say "suitable for service equipment when installed according to 408". 408 essentially says the panel can't do that job. Now doesn't that seem to you that the manufacturer is saying "This tastes great, but you can't taste it or it will kill you." If it will kill me, who cares how it tastes?

What they are saying is, "This is one of those cans we consider 'Suitable for Service Equipment.' Be sure to follow the NEC."

408.36 is only asking for overcurrent protection, not a main handle to shut off the loads. It is on a feeder, which indicates it has overcurrent protection. Which means it's not a service. It also means that 408.36 is satisfied with the OCPD at the first house, because not one section says that it's not satisfied with this arrangement. In fact, 225.40 is still there.

 

[mvannevel]

Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Originally posted by georgestolz:

Originally posted by mvannevel:
[qb] Note that we do not have to add up the handles here as there is not a requirement in 225 for us to do so like there is in 230.80.

That's not a blessing, it's a curse.

They don't give us the method for determining the rating of the disconnecting means. Which means it falls back to 90.4. And that's just yucky bad code writing.

Marc wrote:
Are you saying the panel rating is the same as the disconnect rating.(it seems to me they are two different things)

Wholeheartedly agreed.

For the purposes of 225.39 and the provisions of 225.33(A) allowing 6 switches or breakers, yes, that's what I'm saying. Is this sloppy code writing, or did the CMP not see any need to total the handles for this type of installation? I tend to believe that they saw no need for it. Lets say, for example, I have a 60 ampere 4 circuit MLO panel installed in a garage. I have more than two two-wire circuits so it must be rated at least 60 amperes. From that panel I supply two 15 ampere receptacle circuits and one 15 ampere lighting circuit. The handles only total 45 amperes. Does that mean I'd need to add a 4th 15 ampere circuit to total 60? Of course not. Let's use some common sense here. If I were to install a 60 ampere fused disconnect ahead of this panel, would I be required to fuse it at 60 amperes? 225.39 only says that the disconnecting means be rated at 60 amperes in this instance, not fused at 60. The disconnecting means is the panel and the installed breakers, just as it would be were it a fused disconnect with the installed fuses. Remember, we're only talking about a disconnecting means here not overcurrent protection. We've already got that on the feeder itself. If we really feel the need for a disconnect, it needn't be fused at all. We could just as easily (and correctly) install an unfused pull-out, safety switch, or molded case switch. The overcurrent protection on the feeder is what makes this article necessary and what makes it different from Article 230. So all of this talk about adding handles is a moot point. This isn't a service.

George, I agree with what you said about the panel being required to be suitable for service equipment, but not used as service equipment. According to something I read in a Mike Holt publication a while back, this is to allow for the installation of a main bonding jumper for a neutral-to-ground connection as permitted in 250.32(B)(2). This gives us our options for grounding as outlined in 250.32.

I really believe we're trying to make this a whole lot more complicated than it needs to be. Those 6 switches or circuit breakers will undoubtedly disconnect all ungrounded conductors in the structure. And that's all we're being asked to do, and 225.33(A) gives us the permission to do it that way.