6 disconnect rule violation?

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George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

David, I really do not understand your post. How do you use the main lugs as a disconnect in a service? How many throws of the hand is a lug? :confused:

And if you really believe that, where do you see a difference between the requirements in 225.31 and 230.70, and .71?
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

I?m not saying the main lugs are the disconnect for a service. I am saying 230.70 says the service must cut off the connection between the conductors in the building and the service entrance conductors.

Therefore the service conductors can land on main lugs as long as there are no more than six disconnects ( feeders or branch circuit) that separate the building conductors from the service entrance conductors.

The only problem is you apply 225.33 (six circuit breakers mounted in a single enclosure,) seems to send you to the language in 230.70 separating the supply conductors from the building conductors not disconnecting the supply conductors. If that is the case they should use the same language in both sections and spell out what they are disconnecting.

225.31 is different then 230.70 in that the disconnect must cut the connection of the supply conductors. If you land a feeder to main lugs you are not providing a disconnect of the supply conductors

230.70
Service Conductors // branch circuit and feeder conductors

225.31 supply conductors (branch circuit or feeder) // Building

[ December 01, 2005, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: david ]
 

mvannevel

Senior Member
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Originally posted by david:


225.31 is different then 230.70 in that the disconnect must cut the connection of the supply conductors. If you land a feeder to main lugs you are not providing a disconnect of the supply conductors

David, the requirement in 225.31 makes no reference to disconnecting the feeder conductors that supply the panelboard bus. Only that the ungrounded conductors that supply the building be disconnected, which can be accomplished with the 6 switches or circuit breakers. If this weren't the case, there would be no need for 225.33(A) which allows the 6 switches or breakers to be used as the disconnecting means.
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

When I think of service disconnect or supply disconnect I visualize a disconnect that shuts off the service or a disconnect that shuts off the feeder.

The reality seems to be you are not disconnecting the service conductors or the supply conductors, rather in both cases you are disconnecting the building wiring (branch circuits & feeders from the service or feeder conductors
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

I read in a 125 main lug or main breaker Murray panel that the panel is "only suitable as service equipment when the main breaker is installed". So I guess that means the 6 switch rule nor a back-fed breaker would be permitted for a separate structure using this panel.
 

websparky

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Thank you Bryan!

Can anyone else find the same type of info on a panel that you have access to?

It would be interesting after all this time to see if there is merit to the OP's inspector's call.
 

mpd

Senior Member
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

I agree, after a week of debate, it would be nice to put this post to rest,
 

geezer

Inactive, Email Never Verified
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

I read in a 125 main lug or main breaker Murray panel that the panel is "only suitable as service equipment when the main breaker is installed". So I guess that means the 6 switch rule nor a back-fed breaker would be permitted for a separate structure using this panel.
The breaker installed to "backfeed" the panel is the "main breaker".
 

websparky

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

I finally had the opportunity to take this photo of a panel with the instructions for use. The code reference is 2002 NEC.

42mlo.jpg


[ December 13, 2005, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: websparky ]
 

Rick C

New member
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

YOU DO NEED TO HAVE 1 GFCI FOR REC. AND 1 NON GFCI FOR POWER TOOLS IN THE PANAL PLUS 1 FOR LIGHTING
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

if it gets that hairy just set a disc connect adjacent to the mlo panel and be done with it.
Personally I don`t agree on the 6 throw rule for this case but get throught it and go on
 

websparky

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Personally I don`t agree on the 6 throw rule for this case but get throught it and go on
Allen,
It is not a matter of personal opinion but what the code says.

408-14.jpg


The panelboard contains circuits with a neutral conductor and they total more than 10% of the 6 breakers.
This is a very easy thing to understand but based on "this has always been allowed" and "I have never been sighted for this before" mentality, everyone thinks this just can't be right.
 

benaround

Senior Member
Location
Arizona
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Dave Nix,

So for a one circuit install in a MLO panel you would need at least a 12 circuit enclosure, correct--- that would be only 8.3333% of the available bus space,and not a L&A panel therefore NEC compliant.

The main OCPD need not be installed in the MLO panel,it just needs to be installed.

This makes a 42 circuit MLO panel even more of a benefit. again JMO
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

By Frank: that would be only 8.3333% of the available bus space,and not a L&A panel therefore NEC compliant.
????
The 10% has nothing to do with "available bus space"

It has to do with "10 percent of its overcurrent devices protecting lighting and appliance branch circuits" ;)
So yes if you want one breaker for a branch circuit but before you can stop calculating you better have 11 more 2 pole breakers serving only line to line loads which would require more than 12 circuit spaces.
1 single pole breaker installed in a panel would equal 100% of the breakers protecting lighting and appliance branch circuits.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

2005
224.33(B) Single-Pole Units. Two or three single-pole switches or breakers capable of individual operation shall be permitted on multiwire circuits, one pole for each ungrounded conductor, as one multipole disconnect, provided they are equipped with handle ties or a master handle to disconnect all ungrounded conductors with no more than six operations of the hand.

Branch Circuit, Multiwire. A branch circuit that consists of two or more ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them, and a grounded conductor that has equal voltage between it and each ungrounded conductor of the circuit and that is connected to the neutral or grounded conductor of the system.
I have a concern about the idea of using handle ties on single pole breakers in a main-lug panel as described in this thread.
If I am reading the section correctly the use of single pole breakers are required to be on a multiwire circuit. Circuits that are not part of a multiwire circuit are not allowed to have their handles tied together.

To help me better understand this multiwire circuit I ask;
A circuit that supplies receptacles and another circuit supplies lights. Both leave the panel in different cables or raceways with one phase and one neutral conductor. Are these two circuits a multiwire circuit?

If these two circuits are not a multiwire circuit then they cannot be tied together as outlined in 225.33(B).

Now I have a shed that is supplied with one 120 volt circuit that supplies lights and receptacles. This circuit enters the building and lands in the switch box leaves and runs across the building to the receptacles. Does this comply to 225? Is a disconnect required?
:)
 

mvannevel

Senior Member
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Originally posted by websparky:
The panelboard contains circuits with a neutral conductor and they total more than 10% of the 6 breakers.
This is a very easy thing to understand but based on "this has always been allowed" and "I have never been sighted for this before" mentality, everyone thinks this just can't be right.
Those aren't the reasons why I allow this installation. I allow it because my interpretation of these code sections is that it is allowed. Yes this is a lighting and appliance panelboard, but since the feeder has overcurrent protection not greater than the rating of the panelboard, the exception to 408.16(A) gives the permission to omit individual protection. We are not using the panelboard as service equipment. And as such, we are not violating the listing of the panel. In the IAEI 1&2 Family Dwelling Electrical Systems book, J. Phillip Simmons describes this requirement like this:

"The general requirement in Section 225.36 is that the service disconnecting mean be suitable for use as service equipment. This generally relates to the construction of the panelboard. It will have a neutral terminal bar that can be bonded to the enclosure and that will permit the grounded system conductor to be connected to a grounding electrode conductor."

There is nothing magical about a panelboard being suitable for service equipment. It only relates to the ability to bond the enclosure to the neutral bar. This is as opposed to a panelboard which is suitable for use only as service equipment, where the the enclosure and neutral bar are permanently bonded together.

If I am reading the section correctly the use of single pole breakers are required to be on a multiwire circuit. Circuits that are not part of a multiwire circuit are not allowed to have their handles tied together.

To help me better understand this multiwire circuit I ask;
A circuit that supplies receptacles and another circuit supplies lights. Both leave the panel in different cables or raceways with one phase and one neutral conductor. Are these two circuits a multiwire circuit?

If these two circuits are not a multiwire circuit then they cannot be tied together as outlined in 225.33(B).

Now I have a shed that is supplied with one 120 volt circuit that supplies lights and receptacles. This circuit enters the building and lands in the switch box leaves and runs across the building to the receptacles. Does this comply to 225? Is a disconnect required?
You're right Mike, the circuit breakers must be part of a multiwire branch circuit to have handle ties installed. The two circuits you describe leaving the panel in separate raceways or cables are not a multiwire branch circuit. They are 2-wire branch circuits. As for your 120 volt circuit to the shed, yes a disconnect is required and the switch is it. The exception to 225.38 permits snap switches or sets of 3 or 4-way switches as the disconnecting means for that installation. The switch would have to disconnect both the lights and receptacles. You could do the same thing by running a multiwire branch circuit to the shed, split the lights and receptacles up, and install 2 15 ampere switches to act as the disconnecting means. The multiwire branch circuit can be considered a single circuit as stated in 225.30. And, you only have 2 swipes of the hand.

(Edited for spelling and syntax)

[ December 16, 2005, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: mvannevel ]
 

suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Originally posted by mvannevel:
There is nothing magical about a panelboard being suitable for service equipment. It only relates to the ability to bond the enclosure to the neutral bar. This is as opposed to a panelboard which is suitable for use only as service equipment, where the the enclosure and neutral bar are permanently bonded together.
Exactly. I wonder if someone had a panel labeled "Suitable for use as service equipment only when the green bonding screw is installed" if they would reject the panel when being used at an outbuilding with a 4-wire feeder. The suitable for use as service equipment requirement causes confusion when you can not use the panel as service equipment, such as when fed by a 4-wire feeder.
 

benaround

Senior Member
Location
Arizona
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Wayne,

In the photo that Dave posted 12/13/05 @ 5:11pm on page 18 it states--

Caution: "if more than 10% of the BREAKER POLES----"

note: This was deleted from his next post 12/15/05 @ 5:57?? Why.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: 6 disconnect rule violation?

Originally posted by benaround:
Wayne,

In the photo that Dave posted 12/13/05 @ 5:11pm on page 18 it states--

Caution: "if more than 10% of the BREAKER POLES----"

note: This was deleted from his next post 12/15/05 @ 5:57?? Why.
I am not trying to answer a question directed to someone else but I think that the reason for the omission is due to the fact that this thread is about the requirement of a disconnect for a remote building instead of the number of overcurrent devices allowed in a lighting and appliance panel board.

:)
 
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