another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

[charlie]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

In my opinion, the definition for neutral will be the grounded conductor except for a few instances like a grounded phase.

In my opinion, the definition for grounding conductor will be changed generally to the bonding conductor. In other words, the 120 volt circuit with a phase, grounded, and grounding conductor will be a phase, neutral, and bonding conductor.

I don't know any of this for sure but I think is time to make the Code, and more specifically grounding, easier to understand. I think the biggest problem with grounding is the terminology.

 

[physis]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

And I think it was only grounding to bonding. Which I like. But I think it's like fixing the thing that makes the problem.

 

[physis]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

Hey, welcome aboard Charlie. But I hope you understand that us clarity seekers face some pretty harsh opposition.

Now if I only new what:

the 120 volt circuit with a phase, grounded, and grounding conductor will be a phase, neutral, and bonding conductor.

means.

 

[peter d]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

Ok, how about we describe conductors this way:

Ungrounded: Current and voltage carrying.

Grounded: Current carrying at 0 volts.

Grounding: Theoretically 0 volts and 0 amps, practically speaking very small amounts of current and voltage, high current carrying for extremely short periods of time.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

My proposals for the 2005 code would have reserved the word "grounding" for conductors that connect directly to the grounding electrodes. The words "equipment grounding conductor" would be replaced with the words "equipment bonding conductor". I made these proposals to try to clear up the confusion about bonding and grounding. What is now called the EGC is the fault clearing path, but the connection to earth or ground has nothing to do with fault clearing on building voltage systems. What we really need to clear a 'ground" fault is a path back to the power source. A bonding conductor will provide this path. The proposals were accepted by CMP5, but by one vote short of the required 2/3s majority. A task force has been appointed to study this issue for the 2008 code. I have no idea what their decision on this issue will be.
Don

 

[physis]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

Don, I like your idea for changing the equipment grounding conductor to equipment bonding conductor.

But.

What's maybe a bit too ironic, is that the only conductor that wont have the word ground in it is the grounding conductor.

I think I would like the EGC to be called a bonding conductor, loose the word equipment, I really don't think it's necessary or helps. I think that would make things clearer but I still think it's going after the one that is labeled the closest to what it is.

I have to admit that grounded conductor is a pretty darn good description for that conductor. None the less I think that it is also a significant source of confusion. I've never liked the word return in reference to neutral but maybe that would be useable.

The word ground definately doesn't need to be in the supply conductors.

Don, how do go about addressing the entire NEC? Do you submit to every CMP? I see you're going after CMP 5. Aren't these usages scattered throughout the NEC?

At first I wasn't so sure but the idea of changing the gounding conductor name at the MBJ is really starting to sound good to me.

 

[physis]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

Nope, I changed my mind again.

"Bonding conductor" is perfect.

GEC should be "Service Grounding Conductor"

Grounded Conductor could stay or be "Grounded Supply Conductor"

And Ungrounded Conductor, "Supply Conductor"

This sounds pretty good to me, at least right now.

 

[charlie]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

Sam, you are doing an imitation of a ping pong ball.

 

[physis]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

I have to say Charlie, I give you CMP guys credit. It's not all that easy to balance all the importances of these terminologies. It takes a number of reexaminations.

 

[charlie]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

And whatever path you end up taking, someone will not like it at all.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

Sam,
I submitted over 150 proposals about the "bonding" issue, and one of those proposals covered all of Article 250. In the other proposals, I tried to cover every code setion that used the words "equipment grounding conductor". One of the panel chairman even voiced a complaint about the number of proposals.
Don

 

[physis]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

I have to say Don that that is exactly the reason I tend to not want to participate.

First, there may be too much going on to begin with for any one item to get fair attention. That may or may not be true.

And second, I hate the very idea of some self important individual or body looking down their arisicatic nose at my mundane concerns. Which also may or may not be true.

Although, 150? But isn't that chairman a volenteer? I guess there's two sides of the coin. There's always room for improvement and there's also been a lot of effort invested in what we have now.

I remember Benny having a particular dislike for "un ed and ing" so given his stature and experience I figure I'm not simply crazy.

Mr. Eldridge, that's true, and I'm sure there are also many people who would be unhappy with what I had for dinner on any given night last week as well.

I have half a mind to persue a proposal but this might be too big to even try to get implimented all at once. The whole book would be effected.

 

[apauling]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

miss-types create the best words. ariscatic means proud or disdainful of organization or rigor. ex.."bachelors are ariscatic housekeepers, at least the ungrounding (ed) types".

 

[physis]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

Well, you've got a bigger vocabulary than me. I can't even find that in my dictionary. I'll leave the other post as it is and correct it here.

Aristocratic, that's aristocratic.

Outside of Don, Charlie and myself I didn't know anybody else was still following this.

 

[hurk27]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

Oh were here.

 

[physis]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

Hi Wayne I am, I couldn't resist.

 

[apauling]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

not in dictionary. i thought my humor was clear, but i guess it's much drier than i thought.

paul

 

[physis]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

Don't make me give you the rolly eyed guy Paul.

Alright, :roll:

I warned you.

Don and Charlie aren't gonna take me seriously anymore if you guys keep this up.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

physis---you brought up the subject of "vending machines"???? there is a new code change beginning jan.1,2005 that requires all new and remanufactured "vending machines to have internal gfi protection! why? because "three" people were killed by ungrounded "vending machines"! we kill more people on miswired metallic utility poles -- why isn't the code officials interested in reducing these deaths by doing away with the practice of installing ground rods at poles?

 

[petersonra]

Re: another electricution - metal street pole-baltimore!

I don't see that the problem is that ground rods are installed at light poles, but that bonding conductors are not. It does not seem to me that the ground rod makes the light pole any more or less dangerous. how do you see that removing the ground rod makes it safer?