Experts in the field like Mike and others find/have numerous issues with the current and past codes. So anyone with knowledge in the field knows all codes are not perfect. Unlike some of you I don't consider myself an expert in the field but I've been in the field for 35 years so I have extensive knowledge in the electrical field.
Bonding/Grounding copper water lines
- Thread starter rcmoon
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Experts in the field like Mike and others find/have numerous issues with the current and past codes. So anyone with knowledge in the field knows all codes are not perfect. Unlike some of you I don't consider myself an expert in the field but I've been in the field for 35 years so I have extensive knowledge in the electrical field.
See post #54.
Mike makes it very clear that's its not a good idea to tie your plumbing system to your service. He even uses the words, "Are you kidding me."
And even if he did, ( he certainly did not ) considering the literally billions of feet bonded metal gas and water pipes, I guess all of those services are now a ticking time bomb, but still we have yet to see Mr. Holt (in fact some of his videos stress the need and importance of bonding) or any of the other thousands of experts w/ tons of experience studying this stuff out there in full force warning the uninformed masses....no bulletins here, no code change regarding this cycle after cycle, zero- so what does that tell you?
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- Location
- Massachusetts
For sure the code is not perfect and sometimes needs changing
However, this is not one of those issues. Have you gone back to the video to see what Mike actually said?
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
Actually Mike said two thing, and a casual listener might be confused into reading more into it than he said.
1. When you have a nonmetaliic piping system with small amounts of metal at faucets, showers, etc., there is absolutely no sense in trying to bond all those parts to ground (leaving unsaid "...since they are not likely to become energized").
2. If you have a system (somewhat undefined) which is unbonded, it may be more dangerous to bond it. (referring in context back to the two sides of pool ladder with non-metallic steps and one side bonded and the other only grounded via its socket in the concrete.)
In item 2 Mike is not (although it may sound like it at first listening) referring to an entirely metallic piping system which might be isolated from earth ground by a dielectric union or plastic pipe section. That large metal system is, unfortunately, likely to become energized by the various electrical appliances to which it is connected. Not bonding it to the EGC/GES/POCO secondary neutral is in fact dangerous.
An intermediate condition is when you have a metallic piping system which is connected to earth by the utility pipe and/or outdoor pipe runs on the customer side. The NEC clearly requires that to be bonded to the GES even though it is already "grounded".
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
Hey, if you take a transcript of Mike's talk and clip just the right sentence out of context it seems to say exactly what the OP thinks it said. That is not my fault. And it does appear that Mike explicitly went beyond the topic of the video (pool bonding) to make those statements.
Maybe Mike should recall that video?
Or publish an errata?You and I are listening to that video in the context of all of Mike's other published videos and statements. The OP is not. But his conclusion is still wrong!
- Location
- Massachusetts
Oh, my mistake. I assumed the idea was to read things in context unless you are a modern reporter trying to make a story where there is none.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
I think that my main point is that just telling the OP that "Mike did not say that," without any additional explanation, is not going to be very persuasive, since Mike did (arguably) say just that. It is just not what he meant.
electricguy61
Senior Member
Folks RCMOON is an "expert". Let him be. "Cast not your pearls before swine".
I just pity anyone who lives in or visits his home. Seldom do our actions affect ourselves alone.
I just pity anyone who lives in or visits his home. Seldom do our actions affect ourselves alone.
Folks, Electric61 is sarcastic and apparently thinks he's an expert. If you listened to the video I referenced from Mike Holt, you would have heard him say, " If you can ever not energize something and insulate or isolate something that's what you want."
So there is no way my plumbing pipes, etc. can ever get energized since they are completely isolated from the service neutral and ground. Yours mr sarcastic can become energized.
Most service drop conductors are 20 to 40 years old, so don't you think the insulation has deteriorated over this time due to heat, weather, sun, friction from rubbing each other, etc. Mine certainly did and energized everything tied to the ground at the service. Since you know everything, why don't you do a test? If you have copper lines through out your house for your plumbing, why don't you get in your shower under running water and have someone make contact with one of your hot service conductors to your bare service neutral and see if you get some since shocked into you?
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- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
Your water system is not connected to a dishwasher, washing machine, or refrigerator then? Especially not to an electric water heater?
Ok, there.
First, if the neutral was intact and the poco fuse was acting right, why wouldn't it blow if there was a h- n sc in the overhead?
Second, if your neutral came loose and you did have good bonding between your metal water service pipes, your service neutral and your neighbors service, the metal water main pipe would likely pick up the current and prevent damage from a lost neutral (the current would flow thru your pipe gec, thru water main and then thru neighbors water gec, then thru their svc neutral) and in a hypothetical (fault current would taking same route) where there was a short circuit and where the fuse didn't open and the you did have higher than normal voltages somehow, like you may have had, that pipe would be an effective fault current path for the fault current, thus eventually blowing the fuse and preventing further damage- but still, bonding those pipes is a bad idea?-see post #59.
Third, as GoldDigger states above, think about all those appliances- that expansive metal pipe system only needs to come into contact with any slight path back to the source anywhere, not necessarily hardwired to anything.
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electricguy61
Senior Member
I rest my case ?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
So there is nothing in your house that has a connection to both electric power and water? There are no cases where NM cable passes close to a metal water line?
Is the water to your house supplied by a metal underground water pipe and are you in an area where there are thunderstorms?
After I had the issue, I made certain none of my appliances including water heater is connected with copper or steel water pipe. All of them have some form of isolation/insulation between it and the copper lines in the wall. There is no NM cable run close to any of my copper lines. That would be poor practice and since I wired my own house I'm certain of that. I'm on my own well so not tied to neighbors or any municipality water system.
But the main metal pipe to the well is in the ground?
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^^^^^
Add to this: or is any of the metallic water supply pipe in contact w/ the earth?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
So there is no EGC to your well pump motor?
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