Bonding to a BONDED water pipe

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geochurchi

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Concord,NH
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Retired electrician
Hi all , correct me if I am wrong, if I install a grounded outlet in place of an ungrounded outlet I am allowed to pick up a bond wire for that outlet from a bonded cold water pipe or if I have an ungrounded switch box I could bond it to a bonded cold water pipe. As I see it the cold water pipe if bonded correctly would be part of the grounded electrode system.

Thanks
 
Nope. The location of the bond is quite specific, you cannot just go to any portion of a bonded water pipe.

250.68(C) Metallic Water Pipe and Structural Metal. Grounding
electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted
to be connected at the following locations and used
to extend the connection to an electrode(s):
(1) Interior metal water piping located not more than 1.52 m
(5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be
permitted to be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes
that are part of the grounding electrode system.


250.130(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch
Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor
of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension
shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system
as described in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure
where the branch circuit for the receptacle or
branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor
within the service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar
within the service equipment enclosure
 
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Sounds from the Code references you can connect to the water pipe but only within 5' of the entrance. That's probably to prevent currents that might flow in the water pipe if it's opened up by a plumber. It's especially true for the main grounding electrode, but I see it's also for other grounding connections. Good to know.
 
I think the practice as described by OP was allowed at one time, but probably went away about same time the GEC was required to hit the first 5 feet of water piping in the structure.

Basically any piping beyond the first 5 feet is not part of the grounding electrode system, but once was.
 
jumper said:
250.68(C) Metallic Water Pipe and Structural Metal. Grounding
electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted
to be connected at the following locations and used
to extend the connection to an electrode(s):
(1) Interior metal water piping located not more than 1.52 m
(5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be
permitted to be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes
that are part of the grounding electrode system.
Click to expand...
I was just about to read this section when I read this post. If I understand 250.68(C)(2) correctly, then the service of a building or an SDS can use that steel as a GEC.

In other words, the service/SDS is at one end and the water main is at another. One could bond to the structural steel closest to the service/SDS and then bond the water main to it's closest structural steel and let the structural steel serve as the GEC between the two points provided the structural steel is continuous as noted in 250.64(C)(3).
 
conmgt said:
I was just about to read this section when I read this post. If I understand 250.68(C)(2) correctly, then the service of a building or an SDS can use that steel as a GEC.

In other words, the service/SDS is at one end and the water main is at another. One could bond to the structural steel closest to the service/SDS and then bond the water main to it's closest structural steel and let the structural steel serve as the GEC between the two points provided the structural steel is continuous as noted in 250.64(C)(3).
Click to expand...

Yes, I have done that.
 
conmgt said:
I was just about to read this section when I read this post. If I understand 250.68(C)(2) correctly, then the service of a building or an SDS can use that steel as a GEC.

In other words, the service/SDS is at one end and the water main is at another. One could bond to the structural steel closest to the service/SDS and then bond the water main to it's closest structural steel and let the structural steel serve as the GEC between the two points provided the structural steel is continuous as noted in 250.64(C)(3).
Click to expand...

Just to be the technically correct, the structural steel is not a GEC, but rather a point of connection.
 
Bonding

Bonding

If I understand this correctly I could go to the bonded water pipe as long as it is with in 5' of the entrance.
 
geochurchi said:
If I understand this correctly I could go to the bonded water pipe as long as it is with in 5' of the entrance.
Click to expand...

kwired said:
I think the practice as described by OP was allowed at one time, but probably went away about same time the GEC was required to hit the first 5 feet of water piping in the structure.
Click to expand...
Bingo! !

Until the adoption of the 1996 NEC the metal cold water pipe was a place that one could run a grounding-type receptacle equipment grounding conductor to. If it was convenient, back before then, one could clamp a replacement receptacle's EGC any where along the cold water pipe.
 
geochurchi said:
Hi all , correct me if I am wrong, if I install a grounded outlet in place of an ungrounded outlet I am allowed to pick up a bond wire for that outlet from a bonded cold water pipe or if I have an ungrounded switch box I could bond it to a bonded cold water pipe. As I see it the cold water pipe if bonded correctly would be part of the grounded electrode system.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I'm confused, why would you want to do this? Can't you just put a GFCI at the beginning of the branch circuit and replace everything with 3-prong receptacles? Or, am I missing something?
 
Ohms law said:
I'm confused, why would you want to do this? Can't you just put a GFCI at the beginning of the branch circuit and replace everything with 3-prong receptacles? Or, am I missing something?
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't you want to bring an equipment ground there if not much trouble to do so? GFCI or no GFCI.
 
kwired said:
Why wouldn't you want to bring an equipment ground there if not much trouble to do so? GFCI or no GFCI.
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I would personally rather just take the extra effort to go to the panel. I just can't think of any situation where I would want to run within 5' of water meter. To each their own.
 
Ohms law said:
I would personally rather just take the extra effort to go to the panel. I just can't think of any situation where I would want to run within 5' of water meter. To each their own.
Click to expand...

Not saying that is not an even better option, but the water pipe is still better than no ground.

Bootlegging from a neutral or driving a ground rod is what is totally unacceptable, yet many don't understand why.
 
kwired said:
Not saying that is not an even better option, but the water pipe is still better than no ground.

Bootlegging from a neutral or driving a ground rod is what is totally unacceptable, yet many don't understand why.
Click to expand...
I would still rather run to the panel, even if I have to add a ground bar for more room.
 
geochurchi said:
Hi all , correct me if I am wrong, if I install a grounded outlet in place of an ungrounded outlet I am allowed to pick up a bond wire for that outlet from a bonded cold water pipe or if I have an ungrounded switch box I could bond it to a bonded cold water pipe. As I see it the cold water pipe if bonded correctly would be part of the grounded electrode system.

Thanks
Click to expand...

You are not bonding the outlet. You are grounding the outlet. Read up on the deffinitions of the two.
 
conmgt said:
I was just about to read this section when I read this post. If I understand 250.68(C)(2) correctly, then the service of a building or an SDS can use that steel as a GEC.

In other words, the service/SDS is at one end and the water main is at another. One could bond to the structural steel closest to the service/SDS and then bond the water main to it's closest structural steel and let the structural steel serve as the GEC between the two points provided the structural steel is continuous as noted in 250.64(C)(3).
Click to expand...

jumper said:
Yes, I have done that.
Click to expand...

jumper said:
Just to be the technically correct, the structural steel is not a GEC, but rather a point of connection.
Click to expand...
To be technically correct, you cannot do this for service or SDS GEC purposes under 2011. The structural steel must qualify as a grounding electrode per 250.52(A)(2) and bonding steel to a metal water pipe electrode does not qualify it as such. FWIW, the qualifying conditions for a structural steel electrode changed in 2011. Under 2008 NEC, the suggested method may have been an approved means.
 
Cavie said:
You are not bonding the outlet. You are grounding the outlet. Read up on the deffinitions of the two.
Click to expand...
In my opinion, most everything we call grounding is really bonding. The only thing that is actually grounding is the connection between the electrical system and the grounding electrode. Everything else is bonding....yes, I am well aware that CMP5 does not agree.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
In my opinion, most everything we call grounding is really bonding. The only thing that is actually grounding is the connection between the electrical system and the grounding electrode. Everything else is bonding....yes, I am well aware that CMP5 does not agree.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, it is bonding. From what I can tell from reading CMP 5's position is that they agree also but feel it would cause massive disruption in the industry because it has been worded as grounding for years and mearly changing the verbiage would not increase safety.

IMHO it would increase clarity of the subject and the 53 articles where grounding is noted.
 
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