Bonding to a BONDED water pipe

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
In my opinion, most everything we call grounding is really bonding. The only thing that is actually grounding is the connection between the electrical system and the grounding electrode.Everything else is bonding....yes, I am well aware that CMP5 does not agree.
I agree with you, it is bonding. From what I can tell from reading CMP 5's position is that they agree also but feel it would cause massive disruption in the industry because it has been worded as grounding for years and mearly changing the verbiage would not increase safety.

IMHO it would increase clarity of the subject and the 53 articles where grounding is noted.
If it was changed from grounding to bonding what would we do about this code section?

(2) Grounding of Electrical Equipment.
Normally non?current-carrying conductive materials enclosing electrical conductors or equipment, or forming part of such equipment, shall be connected to earth so as to limit the voltage to ground on these materials.
 

Gregg Harris

Senior Member
Location
Virginia
If it was changed from grounding to bonding what would we do about this code section?

(2) Grounding of Electrical Equipment.
Normally non?current-carrying conductive materials enclosing electrical conductors or equipment, or forming part of such equipment, shall be connected to earth so as to limit the voltage to ground on these materials.
Would'nt it stay, after we bond together all of the non current carrying conductive materials back to the service that is connected to ground through the grounding electrode conductor?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Would'nt it stay, after we bond together all of the non current carrying conductive materials back to the service that is connected to ground through the grounding electrode conductor?
What about an ungrounded system?
With an ungrounded system everything is still "bonded" together that is also bonded together in a grounded system, the difference is there is no bond to the power source itself.

The fact that there is also a bond to earth is why the term "ground" gets used, as well as easily misused sometimes.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
The fact that there is also a bond to earth is why the term "ground" gets used, as well as easily misused sometimes.
Is this not grounding as defined by the same book we are discussiing?

Grounded (Grounding). Connected (connecting) to ground or to a conductive body that extends the ground connection.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Is this not grounding as defined by the same book we are discussiing?

Grounded (Grounding). Connected (connecting) to ground or to a conductive body that extends the ground connection.
I was not trying to enforce any correct terminology, I was merely pointing out that the conductor has a connection to earth at some point and because of that many people start throwing the G word around to mean almost anything when in fact there are different meanings for different variations of the word, like ground, grounded, grounding, then we throw in additional words that are modified by or for one of these variations at times. Many only hear the G word and associate them all as the same thing when they are not. Having a connection to earth at some point is about all that is common and reason for the G word.

When talking to non electrical professionals the G word is the same meaning no matter what variation you use almost all the time.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Okay now I understand what you are saying. It is like installing a battery in our trucks, we need to connect the ?ground? wire to the battery.

This ?ground? wire we are connecting to our battery is to also be connected to one of the items outlined in 250.52 (A)(1) through (A)(8)?

I like the one we use when talking about coffee, I like my coffee grounded up fine, but I like my pepper grounded course, (was that funny?)
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
...
I like the one we use when talking about coffee, I like my coffee grounded up fine, but I like my pepper grounded course, (was that funny?)
I imagine you, as most, don't care for grounded flights... sometimes it's due to a fault, cause to be leary and concerned... and you should be. Eventually all is well and the flight is ungrounded. :p
 
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GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
I imagine you, as most, don't care for grounded flights... sometimes it's due to a fault, cause to be leary and concerned... and you should be. Eventually all is well and the flight is ungrounded. :p
Grounded ships are even worse than grounded planes, since that is always either the result or cause of a fault. (And here come the earthquake and tsunami puns.....) You also need to be leary if it happens at the jetty. :p
 

jumper

Senior Member
Grounded ships are even worse than grounded planes, since that is always either the result or cause of a fault. (And here come the earthquake and tsunami puns.....) You also need to be leary if it happens at the jetty. :p
Speaking of ships. Wasn't there a thing about "de-gausing" ships or reversing polarity or such regarding WWII Allied ships against Axis mines?

I know, OT, but OP has been answered.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
What about an ungrounded system?
It is still a bonding connection. The only conductor that should be called a grounding conductor is the conductor that directly connects to a grounding electrode. Everything else is a bonding conductor.

My issue with these terms is the fact that the term "grounding" leads many to thing that all you need to do to make a system safe is provide a connection to earth.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
It is still a bonding connection. The only conductor that should be called a grounding conductor is the conductor that directly connects to a grounding electrode. Everything else is a bonding conductor.

My issue with these terms is the fact that the term "grounding" leads many to thing that all you need to do to make a system safe is provide a connection to earth.
I know it is a different non-NEC system, but even with vehicle systems it is called [chassis] grounding... and nothing at all is connected to earth ground. As much as I would like the terminology to be [more] technically correct, the odds it will change in the next cycle or two is, shall we say, astronomically against it.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
I know it is a different non-NEC system, but even with vehicle systems it is called [chassis] grounding... and nothing at all is connected to earth ground. As much as I would like the terminology to be [more] technically correct, the odds it will change in the next cycle or two is, shall we say, astronomically against it.
I agree that the NEC will not change this term. It is just that too many people doing electrical work have no idea of what they are doing and don't understand what the EGC is intended to do, and the word grounding does not help to improve their understanding of what the conductor is intended to do.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
I agree that the NEC will not change this term. It is just that too many people doing electrical work have no idea of what they are doing and don't understand what the EGC is intended to do, and the word grounding does not help to improve their understanding of what the conductor is intended to do.
On that part, I agree... :happyyes:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I agree that the NEC will not change this term. It is just that too many people doing electrical work have no idea of what they are doing and don't understand what the EGC is intended to do, and the word grounding does not help to improve their understanding of what the conductor is intended to do.
I agree also, then throw in the term grounded conductor and they think you are still talking about the same thing.
 

grasfulls

Senior Member
Worse when it is an inspector

Worse when it is an inspector

I agree also, then throw in the term grounded conductor and they think you are still talking about the same thing.
I can live with an ignorant electrician (otherwise I could not live with myself), as most of us ignorant electricians want to and are willing to learn. It is much worse to have an ignorant inspector that already knows everything.
 

bgelectric

Senior Member
I was just about to read this section when I read this post. If I understand 250.68(C)(2) correctly, then the service of a building or an SDS can use that steel as a GEC.

In other words, the service/SDS is at one end and the water main is at another. One could bond to the structural steel closest to the service/SDS and then bond the water main to it's closest structural steel and let the structural steel serve as the GEC between the two points provided the structural steel is continuous as noted in 250.64(C)(3).
Would the connections to steel need to be irreversible?
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Would the connections to steel need to be irreversible?
IMO, that would depend on whether the steel qualifies as an electrode. See post #18.

If steel is not an electrode...

250.62 Grounding Electrode Conductor Material. The
grounding electrode conductor shall be of copper, aluminum,
or copper-clad aluminum. The material selected shall
be resistant to any corrosive condition existing at the installation
or shall be protected against corrosion. The conductor
shall be solid or stranded, insulated, covered, or bare.
So you can't use the steel as a GEC... and to answer the question if irreversible connection would be required... no.
 
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