Disagreement With Inspector

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Iwire, upon examining your proposed definition change for "outlet".

1] Every junction box with joints and or a pull loop and blank covers would not be junction/pull boxes, but "outlets?

2] Therefore if this mentioned inspector was to prevail, then you would have to install receps and lights at every capped box according to your new definition. Every box/outlet in an installation must be designated and a device installed.

3] Electricians would not be able to distinguish between a pull/junction/outlet box. Outlet being where a device is installed.

4] What would you then term these boxes one from another?

I agree with charlie b here.

An outlet is where a device is insatlled per definition.

2005 Hanbook with commentary.

Device. A unit of an electrical system that is intended to carry or control but not utilize electric energy.

The definition of device was revised and made a bit broader for the 2005 Code. Components (such as switches, circuit breakers, fuseholders, receptacles, attachment plugs, and lampholders) that distribute or control but do not consume electrical energy are considered devices. Devices that consume incidental amounts of electrical energy in the performance of carrying or controlling electricity are now also considered devices. Some examples of these components include a switch with an internal pilot light, a GFCI receptacle, and even a magnetic contactor.

A capped junction/pull box" has nothing coming "out" from it. Nor can anything come out without a device as per described above.
 
iwire said:
Charlie I think you just gave me a slippery response. :(
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My apologies. Not my intent. Sometimes I will use language that is intentionally vague, but this was not one of those times.

iwire said:
To an electrician (the group that the NEC is written for) a pair of capped wires in a box is as much a point to get current from as a receptacle is.
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It's a point at which it can happen, but at which it hasn't happened yet.

To be clear, and to avoid being slippery, IMO you don't have an "outlet" at, within, or near an "outlet box," if there is no "electrical device thingy" connected to the incoming wires. By "electrical device thingy," I mean a receptacle that connects to the incoming wires by tightening a screw against the wires, or a luminaire whose pigtail wires (I hope I have that term right) connect to the incoming wires by using wire caps, or some similar device. Wires that enter a box and are wire capped (for protection only, not to connect them to other wires) do not comprise an "outlet."

jim dungar said:
It would also be possible, using appoved methods, to splice onto the wires in the box and extend the circuit without creating an "outlet" at that box. So, capped wires are not a suffcient description.
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Well put, Jim. I agree.
 
jim dungar wrote:
It would also be possible, using approved methods, to splice onto the wires in the box and extend the circuit without creating an "outlet" at that box. So, capped wires are not a sufficient description.

This I might be inclined to think about . Before I accept it.

As some of us agree as to what a "outlet" is according to the NEC.

Outlet "box", well thats open for debate when you extend the circuit from said box down some SO to a cord cap recep.

I think the box above "could" be described as an "outlet box"
 
Thanks all.

I will let this be, and think on it.

Right now I think your all nuts. :lol: :wink:

Perhaps that will change after some more thought. :)
 
If one is to read the definitions for, receptacle outlet, and lighting outlet, it puts this more into context of what the original poster's question is alluding to.
A box with wiring is, if you will, an OUTLET. Now install a lighting fixture and it is a lighting outlet. Install a receptacle instead of a lighting fixture and it is a receptacle outlet. Any box with wiring is an outlet (potentially current at some future time may be drawn from it)
There is no definition of a junction box in the NEC, so therefore what exactly is a junction box??? If I splice conductors in a lighting outlet box, is is a lighting outlet box.... a junction box, or is it a lighting-junction box :wink:
 
Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary online.

Definition
power point UK noun [C] (US electrical outlet)
a device to which an item of electrical equipment can be connected in order to provide it with electricity
 
it could be anything, but nothing was installed, a box & blank cover was installed as per the original post, as long as he has the required lighting outlets, I would not lose sleep over it,
 
Sometimes principles aint worth fighting... sometimes you got to fight it in an unorthodox way...

Get some $4 FIXTURES from home depot , Install them, with red bulbs or black light bulbs in it, pass the inspection then remove them & mail pictures of the blanks covers to the inspector & tell him he's is an idiot! put it on company stationary.
Theres a principal that you can legally win while shoving it up his butt!!

Fear is temporary...Regret is Permanent
 
how about let him fail you and cite the code section he is failing you for which he is required to give you

77401
what would that accomplish, you would be saying he is right, I got a better idea why not get him on the playground at recess
 
When this thing goes to a poll/vote...I'm with mpd:
Let him fail you and give the Article number so you can "correct" your obvious mistake. :)
 
sandsnow said:
Which is the emoticon for shaking head in total disgust???
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Take your pick:
disgusted.gif
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disgusted.gif
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thumbsdown.gif
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dizzy2.gif
 
mpd said:
how about let him fail you and cite the code section he is failing you for which he is required to give you

77401
what would that accomplish, you would be saying he is right, I got a better idea why not get him on the playground at recess
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Fail me and tell me why, that's got my vote. I also like the recess approach!

Here is my take:

Mr. Inspector thinks that someone is going to install a fixture in the future that HE will not get to inspect, thus, someone has "pulled-a-fast-one" on him.

It's as silly as him demanding to see NM installed in the spare raceway in the panel.
 
Thanks for the replies.

Hey Roger, I wish this was an April Fools Joke. I?d be the first one to admit he got me good but this isn?t the case

Unfortunately this very small city and the inspector is the ?building department? so going to his boss isn?t easy. This is my first job in this city and I was expecting some problems. Apparently some contractors refuse to work in this city because of inspection issues. The ones that do are willing to do what ever the inspector asks. I was onsite for the rough and had to pull out the NEC a few times to get through the inspection. Now it looks like he is going to accept the blank covers this time. I told him to make a note on the existing permit card that when and if these fixtures get installed a permit and inspection will be required. I?ll let you know what happens.
 
Since curt swartz seems to have his problem resolved (at least until the next time) I want to go on to the question of what an outlet is.
I have to agree with Pierre and Bob.
Actually read the definitions of: Lighting outlet; outlet; receptacle. If a receptacle is "a contact device installed at the outlet..." and a lighting outlet is "An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder..." and , finally, an outlet is "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment." then it becomes clear that an outlet is any box that is intended to have current taken out of it, ie; capped conductors, pigtails, etc. Any box that has conductors passing thru without pigtails, taps, etc. could be considered a "pull box" and a box that has conductor splices without pigtails could be a "junction box". An "outlet" could also double as a "pull box" and/or a "junction box".
 
kqresq said:
I want to go on to the question of what an outlet is.

I have to agree with Pierre and Bob.
Actually read the definitions of: Lighting outlet; outlet; receptacle. If a receptacle is "a contact device installed at the outlet..." and a lighting outlet is "An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder..." and , finally, an outlet is "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment." then it becomes clear .
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Yes it does, at least to me. :)

That is a good catch and I wish I thought of it. :oops:

Receptacle. A receptacle is a contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment plug. A single receptacle is a single contact device with no other contact device on the same yoke. A multiple receptacle is two or more contact devices on the same yoke.
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Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.
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IMO that pretty much settles the debate of what is an outlet....at least this time. :lol:
 
So now other question come up.

Are luminaires required by the NEC?

IMO no, only the lighting outlets are required.

I admit that for 210.70(A)(2)(b) it could be argued that a fixture is required as that particular section requires 'illumination'.

IMO inspectors that require operating light fixtures to pass a final do not have an NEC section to back that up.

I do understand that they may well have other codes that they can cite.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Bob ,you know we never solve anything like this in under 10 pages. :D
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:lol:

It won't be solved period, there are a lot of stubborn minds here.....my own included of course. :lol: :oops: :p
 
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