For all you "20 ampers"

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For all you "20 ampers"

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growler said:
I don't think very many electricians think that the use of #14 should be illegal or considered immoral even if this is not what they recommend to their customers.
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I thought you had been reading this thread? :grin:

There are entire areas where 14 AWG has been eliminated 'cause 12 is better'
 
iwire said:
I thought you had been reading this thread? :grin:

There are entire areas where 14 AWG has been eliminated 'cause 12 is better'
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This is true, there are areas where #14 is not allowed.
There are areas where NM is not allowed.

Even NEC does recommend the use of larger conductors to reduce voltage drop and improve efficiency. They just don't make it mandatory.

To say that #12 is not better than #14 is much like saying that EMT is not better than NM. I have never seen a rat bite through EMT and chew off the insulation on the conductors inside the conduit. Not even those high tech. flying squirrels.

I just finished a bowl of ice cream and it's legal for this product to contain a certian amount of rat dropping and rodent hair. It may be legal but prefer to put on my own sprinkles.

The worst comment that I have herd about the use of #14 is the fact that it is "just" code minimum. There is not much more that you can say, it's not the best product because it meets minimum standards.

Minimum: The very least acceptable.

Maximum: The highest attainable.
 
growler said:
Even NEC does recommend the use of larger conductors to reduce voltage drop and improve efficiency. They just don't make it mandatory.
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Using 12 AWG on a 20 amp circuit is not using larger conductors.



growler said:
The worst comment that I have herd about the use of #14 is the fact that it is "just" code minimum. There is not much more that you can say, it's not the best product because it meets minimum standards.
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12 AWG is code minimum on a 20 amp circuit and will not prevent VD on loads approaching the 20 amp capacity.

By your reasoning we should use 10 AWG on all 20 amp circuits and only use 12 AWG on 15 amp circuits.

If this is the way you do it then I applaud you for practicing what you preach and installing a system that is extremely efficient (and expensive).

If you do not do it this way then your argument does not hold much water IMSO.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
I have only read page twelve of this thread, post # 341. Can someone please bring me up to speed on this so I will not have to read 340 other posts? :wink: :D
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Basically, some folks think using #14awg on anything should be illegal and that those of us who do use it are hacks. some folks think they're better than others because they don't do it "code minimum", however, i have a strong suspicion that they're only using #12awg on 20A circuits, which is "code minimum" and therefore the accusers are hacks themselves. unless they're sizing up on every circuit THEY HAVE NO ARGUMENT. It really can't be any simpler than that. However, some say they are not #14 haters but rather #12 lovers, so they are excluded from my comments. its much like being a vegan because you're body can't handle meat, rather than doing it to save the animals.
 
growler said:
...Minimum: The very least acceptable.
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Yet extremely scrutinized, safe, correct and applicable to an appropriate application!

growler said:
Maximum: The highest attainable.
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"Highest" not needed residentially but larger might be.

An electrician does not need to be afraid of correct application especially for residential general lighting branch circuitry. A non-dwelling shop requires a focus on larger for more potential load because of the probability or large plug in items, but these will not be plugged into a bedroom therefore it is not better wiring practice it is only literally larger.

An accurate voltage drop calculation requires known amperes and distance; neither of these is available in a residential general lighting branch circuit, that includes receptacles, in fact the circuit load would be mostly projected and progressive which makes the voltage drop very illusive. Again larger is the journeymen's assessment of the particular application and the journeyman is probably right, but it is not always better to go bigger.

I started wiring houses in California in the mid 70's when houses were often 100% electric including all the conditioning. We wired all sizes and types from starters and custom (mostly custom) and used #14 & 15A circuits as needed with no problems, no flicker, no tripping, no voltage drop. It helps to keep in perspective why we circuit general lighting and we do not wire it to allow unsafe items to operate from it - unsafe as defined by NEC - a large appliance most often requires its own circuit, even a bath ceiling heater (exhaust heat combo) cannot be larger than 7.5A because they terminate directly but in new construction now nobody does this yet we did in the 70's.

If you test amperes with a peak hold meter for a week on a receptacle only general light branch then again on a lighting only circuit in the same house you'll find the load is on the lighting not the receptacle circuit, try this test on 10 homes and I'd bet the same will be true on them all.

My real point is don't circuit out of fear - because something big might get plugged in - know your load and circuit correctly.
 
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wirebender said:
...12 AWG is code minimum on a 20 amp circuit and will not prevent VD on loads approaching the 20 amp capacity...
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Actually:

120 volt, 50 foot run:
#12 cu with 16 amps = 2.7% drop or 3.2 volt drop
#14 cu with 12 amps = 3.2% drop or 3.8 volt drop

120 volt, 85 foot run:
#12 cu with 16 amps = 4.5% drop or 5.4 volt drop
#14 cu with 12 amps = 5.3% drop or 6.4 volt drop
 
tryinghard said:
We wired all sizes and types from starters and custom (mostly custom) and used #14 & 15A circuits as needed with no problems, no flicker, no tripping, NO voltage drop.
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"NO voltage drop". There maybe someone, somewhere that would believe this but you have a voltage drop even if you use huge copper bus bars. The voltage drop just gets smaller as you increase conductor size. Less resistance.
 
growler said:
Even NEC does recommend the use of larger conductors to reduce voltage drop and improve efficiency.
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Your assuming certain conditions, whenever I talk about this subject I mention I would rather have a larger number of circuits in 14 then 12.

Example: You have two 1000 watt heaters, is it better to run one 12 AWG 20 amp circuit for both or two 14 AWG 15 amp circuit? Which application has a higher electrical efficiency?

To say that #12 is not better than #14 is much like saying that EMT is not better than NM.
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Saying 12 AWG is always better then 14 is like saying a 500 HP car is always better then a 100 HP car......if you don't need it you don't need it.

Size the conductor for the job at hand. :smile:
 
iwire said:
Example: You have two 1000 watt heaters, is it better to run one 12 AWG 20 amp circuit for both or two 14 AWG 15 amp circuit
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Two #12's...then I could plug in even more, bigger stuff later. :)

iwire said:
...is like saying a 500 HP car is always better then a 100 HP car......if you don't need it you don't need it...
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Need? Who needs a 500 HP car? But, if you could afford it, and get it by the wife, wouldn't you rather have the 500 HP car? Come on, it's just us guys...you can admit it. :D
 
mivey said:
Actually:

120 volt, 50 foot run:
#12 cu with 16 amps = 2.7% drop or 3.2 volt drop
#14 cu with 12 amps = 3.2% drop or 3.8 volt drop

120 volt, 85 foot run:
#12 cu with 16 amps = 4.5% drop or 5.4 volt drop
#14 cu with 12 amps = 5.3% drop or 6.4 volt drop
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Yes Mivy, that's correct and a great example but you really don't need to use 16 Amps for the load on a 20 Amp. circuit. If you wire the same circuit in #12 as others would wire in #14 then the load stays the same. ( people don't go out and by more appliances because their house is wired in larger wire). The customer/homeowner will plug in the same loads. I have seen voltage drops as high as 12-14% when #14 was used. People just don't think about how long many of the runs really are by the time they get to that last device. It really suprised me.

I'm willing to bet that most of those that use the argument of an unknown load have never measured nor calculated voltage drop for that last receptacle.

I think your 12 amps is a good size load to use for an estimate and that's what I use to check for voltage drop. ( I cheat and use the Sure Test to measure voltage drop)

That covers a small space heater or vacuum cleaner.

 
mivey said:
Two #12's...then I could plug in even more, bigger stuff later. :)
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That was not an option but I will run two circuits in 6 AWG if your picking up the costs. :cool:

Need? Who needs a 500 HP car?
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Really no one.

But, if you could afford it, and get it by the wife, wouldn't you rather have the 500 HP car? Come on, it's just us guys...you can admit it. :D
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Yes of course I would.:) Again if your paying the costs I will take two. :grin:
 
iwire said:
...if your paying the costs I will take two...
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Let me go get my wallet...I'll be right back. :D

I understand that when we are spending other people's money, sometimes we have to get by with the minimum. Been there, done that. If is for me, I'm not quite as tight on funds and can afford the extra capacity. It makes me happy. It makes some of the customers happy as well.
 
mivey said:
Let me go get my wallet...I'll be right back. :D
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OK, I will be waiting. :grin:

If is for me, I'm not quite as tight on funds and can afford the extra capacity. It makes me happy.
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I have plenty of 8, 10, 12 and 14 NM here in storage at the house so cost is not an issue, I still use 14 AWG for a lot of the work. It makes me happy.

Now at work, thats different, mostly 10 AWG for 20 amp circuits more then 100'. To me the load characteristics of commercial circuits are entirely different then dwelling unit circuits. :smile:
 
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