For all you "20 ampers"

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For all you "20 ampers"

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I think the point that is being missed here, at least from my perspective, is this...I don't care that you use use all #12 and 20 amp circuits. I do think, no wait, I do know for a fact that it is not neccesary nor does it make a wiring job better or safer. History has proven that fact.

However....NOT ONE PERSON has made a realistic argument as to why I should NOT use #14 and 15 amp circuits and whay this is so bad. So bad in fact that the NEC does not allow this method of installation. Of wait, of course it does. :D
 
electricmanscott said:
However....NOT ONE PERSON has made a realistic argument as to why I should NOT use #14 and 15 amp circuits and whay this is so bad. So bad in fact that the NEC does not allow this method of installation. Of wait, of course it does. :D
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On that, we can agree. The NEC allows the use of 14.







Hmmmmm? Wonder what surprises awaits in 2011?
 
electricmanscott said:
However....NOT ONE PERSON has made a realistic argument as to why I should NOT use #14 and 15 amp circuits and whay this is so bad. So bad in fact that the NEC does not allow this method of installation. Of wait, of course it does. :D
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Point of fact: I use to be an all 12 gauge guy but now I am a 14 gauger on lights.

I find your argument weak. The nec is minimum and if you look at table 310.16 the NEC also allows 12 gauge aluminum. I bet you wont find too many EC's using that. To each his own. Do it to code, make it neat and then "don't worry, be happy".
 
electricmanscott said:
I think the point that is being missed here, at least from my perspective, is this...I don't care that you use use all #12 and 20 amp circuits. I do think, no wait, I do know for a fact that it is not neccesary nor does it make a wiring job better or safer. History has proven that fact.

However....NOT ONE PERSON has made a realistic argument as to why I should NOT use #14 and 15 amp circuits and whay this is so bad. So bad in fact that the NEC does not allow this method of installation. Of wait, of course it does. :D
Click to expand...


First off no one has ever said that #14 is so bad or that it was unsafe or illegal. The fact that it is allowed by the NEC is a given.


What do the fine folks that write the NEC actually recommend? You know those Gods at the NFPA. If they were not the experts they would not be allowed to write the same code we are all forced to use.

NEC 2005 210.19 FPN NO.4 Only a suggestion, not enforceable.

Conductors for branch circuits as defined in Article 100, sized to prevent a voltage drop exceeding 3 percent at the farthest outlet of power, heating, and lighting loads or combinations of such loads , and where the maximum total voltage on both feeders and branch circuits to the farthest outlet does not exceed 5 percent, provide reasonable efficiency of operation.

I have checked for voltage drop in homes wired in both #12 and #14 and just as I suspected the voltage drop was always less in those wired in #12. With #12 you can normally get very close to the 5 percent if you use a 15 Amp load ( most residential duplex receptacles are 15 Amp rated ).

Does this mean that #14 is bad or dangerous, no it does not. Does his mean that #12 comes a lot closer to meeting an NEC recommendation, yes it does.

If you add efficiency into the argument then #12 is the winner. Should the average electricain care about this? He probably should if he's paid to.

The real problem with residential loads is that they are so variable that no one can really calculate the cost of power loss due to inefficient circuit wiring. I have no idea how long it would take to recover, or even if it's possible to recover the additional cost of upgrading the wiring size.

From a purely technical standpoint you have to admit that #12 is better.
From a business standpoint maybe not. If milk was cheap then McDonalds would probably put some in their Milk Shakes.

Disclaimer: I actually have no idea what's in a McDonalds Milk Shake. :grin:
 
growler said:
.

From a purely technical standpoint you have to admit that #12 is better.
From a business standpoint maybe not. If milk was cheap then McDonalds would probably put some in their Milk Shakes.

Disclaimer: I actually have no idea what's in a McDonalds Milk Shake. :grin:
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I do????? :-?


I don't care what is in those milkshakes, that is some good stuff.
 
electricmanscott said:
I do????? :-?


I don't care what is in those milkshakes, that is some good stuff.
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Q:
Is it true you make milkshakes out of LARD?!?!? coz that is disgusting! And my teacher says that the salads are less healthy than the burgers! thats abit stupid innit? Gaaaawd whats this world comming to? Love you xXxXx

A:
Firstly McDonald's apologises unreservedly for the late reply to your question. There were some technical problems which caused some questions to slip through. Regarding your question: McDonald?s is constantly surprised by the myths surrounding the ingredients in its food. There is no lard in the Milkshakes. The base ingredients of the Milkshakes are as follows: Milk, Sugar, Whey Powder, Glucose Syrup, Cream (40% Butterfat), Stabiliser (E412 Guar Gum, E407 Carrageenan (Standardised with sugars), Dextrose, E410 Locust Bean Gum. The rest of the ingredients depend upon the flavour you choose. All our different milkshakes have been approved as vegetarian by the Vegetarian Society. What is 'healthy' or 'unhealthy' is a question up for debate. Nutritionists say that food items can?t be categorised either way, but that it?s a matter of moderation, balance and physical activity in your overall diet. If you would like to compare the burgers and salads, you can find all McDonald?s food ingredients and information in the 'Ingredients List' which is in the 'Eat Smart' section of www.mcdonalds.co.uk. Also, there is a comprehensive list of nutritional and allergen information available at www.mcdonaldsmenu.info.
 
Well I have enjoyed the discussion. I have determined that it really comes down to personal choice in using all #12, people said they were forced to use it but they really prefer it. some said they don't want the wire to get hot, I think they should run #6, some just do it cuz they want to. What I like is that I will finish the rough on the house I am wiring tommarrow and collect a check on Monday. I am putting together an estimate on another tonight. Wish me luck in getting it.
 
Residential Reasoning

Residential Reasoning

With residential wiring most often 15A is safe and correct for general lighting circuitry and it is certainly within the NEC to include lighting and receptacle outlets, 210-23(A).

Lets look at what cannot be on a 15A general lighting circuit as additional reasoning.
---- Known appliances that plug in and are over 12A, 210-23(A)(1)

---- Known appliances that fastens in place and are over 7.5A, 210-23(A)(2)

---- Receptacles in kitchens, dining, breakfast nooks, baths

---- Single nonmotor-operated appliances beyond the criteria in 422-11(E), Central heating equipment (FAU gas), storage-type water heaters, and appliances in 422

---- Motors have to be circuited as per 430, AC units 440, fixed heaters 424

There's not much left to plug in a general lighting circuit, quartz clocks, ...?

Known high lighting loads should always be calculated, otherwise the 3VA x livable square feet calculation in 220-3 works great, 15A x 120 = 1800VA / 3VA = 600 Sq Ft per general lighting branch circuit. Keep in mind there is know known load on the receptacles only projected load, the lighting is often the only known load.

It is good to provide for future but unwise without reason. We should wire to accommodate items added later but a journeyman electrician must add those items, in other words we do not need to accommodate future wiring by non-electricians. A journeymen electrician will know to check an existing branch circuit size and load whereas a non-electrician won't.

NEC minimum is certainly not "skimping or cheap" and it is bad business to sell this fallacy to the public and force it on each other. If a larger general lighting branch circuit is needed simply provide it professionally, fear should not be used to convey this to a client just your qualified opinion. NEC is extremely scrutinized and safe it has been authored for over a hundred years strictly for the purposes of personal and property protection. In residential general lighting branch circuitry, including receptacle outlets, a 15A and #14 circuit is very safe and correct wiring practice, the NEC say's so! It just needs good qualified journeymen to install it.
 
The zealots who promote 12 gauge wiring as the minimum size for any circuit are not impressed by facts and reasoning. They have a secret weapon that they use to win any argument: The Vacuum Cleaner From Hell (VCFH).

The VCFH will trip the breaker of any 15 amp circuit it's plugged in to. This mythical vacuum cleaner is so powerful it will blow transformers right off the tops of poles.

The Twelve Gaugeians also love to proclaim "The NEC is just a minimum standard" and imply that following the NEC standards is somehow unethical. Twelve Gaugeians are a bizarre breed, they only exist in the electrical field, for example, there is no weird cult within the framing trade promoting 2x6 construction over 2x4....
 
VCFH :grin:

HaskinsElectric said:
there is no weird cult within the framing trade promoting 2x6 construction over 2x4....
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Oh they are out there, they are the same crowd that thinks a 3/4" hole through the center of a 2 x 4 is going to cause a structural failure. :D
 
iwire said:
Oh they are out there, they are the same crowd that thinks a 3/4" hole through the center of a 2 x 4 is going to cause a structural failure. :D
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:D


I used to work with someone like that, who went by the name "Caffeine Man," "Chugs," among others. :D

(Note to members, these are not nicknames referring to Iwire.)
 
HaskinsElectric said:
Twelve Gaugeians are a bizarre breed, they only exist in the electrical field, for example, there is no weird cult within the framing trade promoting 2x6 construction over 2x4....
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There is a weird cult out there that promotes brick over vinyl siding even though vinly is legal as a code minimum.

Brick does cost more and is a little harder to install but most masons prefer it.

There is another weird cult that promotes copper over PVC plumbing pipe. They have been known to go as far as suggesting cast iron drain pipe to reduce the noise for the flushing of toilets. There are many cheaper and easier ways to plumb a house than useing copper ( they even work and are legal).

There is a weird cult of roofers that have gone so far as to install slate or metal roof systems. Asphalt shingles are code minimum.

There are those that install granite counter tops when everyone know you can buy a cheaper product, that's just as functional.

I have actually wired a house where double 2 X 4's were used instead of one 2 X 6 for the load requirement. It's much easier to deal wih one 2 X 6. :D :D
 
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Growler, I don't think anyone is saying you should not use 12 AWG if you want to. I think the problem is many people seem to feel that using 14 is wrong, bad, should be a code violation, is immoral, etc.

For a lot of the 20 amp circuits I run I use 10 AWG but that is either because of job specs or I am concerned with voltage drop. But I would never say everyone should run 10 AWG. :)
 
iwire said:
Growler, I don't think anyone is saying you should not use 12 AWG if you want to. I think the problem is many people seem to feel that using 14 is wrong, bad, should be a code violation, is immoral, etc. :)
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I have always understood the argument to be that there are " no " advantages to running #12. Which I consider wrong from a technical stand point.

From a business prospective you must sell the customer what they are willing to pay for. Many builders put a brick facade out front and the other three sides are vinyl but this is not the best possible product.

I don't think very many electricians think that the use of #14 should be illegal or considered immoral even if this is not what they recommend to thier customers.
 
At least we all agree that backstabbing receptacles is a good electrical practice. I think most of the nay-sayers have accepted the obvious truth that backstabbing is the professional way to terminate conductors on devices. Our industry is making progress and this gives me hope.
 
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