Have any of you transitioned…

[electrofelon]

What's the difference between an electrical designer and electrical engineer as it pertains to this industry? Is an electrical designer just a drafter?

I think it varies by state. Note that many states and municipalities do not have any requirements that a building's electrical system be designed/stamped by a PE no matter how big the project is. For example, I am not aware of any law in WA that prohibits me as a licensed electrical contractor and electrician from designing and installing the electrical system in even a skyscraper. I am not a PE so I cant say Im a PE, but I believe I am free to advertise that I do "electrical design" or similar.

 

[jim dungar]

In college, a BSEE degree they tend to focus more on electronic circuits rather than power distribution.

The only useful thing that I learned out of college for me that I apply in this industry was circuit analysis and complex math (with imaginary numbers). That's it.

I had to learn short circuit calculations for power distribution out of college because they didn't teach me this.

And my BSEE sub area was actually Power Systems and Rotating Machinery. I actually had one course where we needed to design a building distribution system including short circuit analysis and NEC compliance. At that time the short circuit formulae were intended to be used with slide rules as computer based software was still being developed

 

[drcampbell]

I don't know... not many of my EE class mates could tell you where to look for ampacity difference between a #14 and #4 Cu conductor. It will help in the theory, but from my experience, the EE program didn't teach anything practical for construction.

While the specific subject matter might not be covered in a BSEE degree, the fact that you have a degree at all -- even an art-history or Egyptology degree -- should enable you to take the exams without sitting through the classes.

For that matter, it should be an option for everybody. If you can pass the exam, either you know the material or the exam is poorly designed.

 

[LarryFine]

One of my best friends, whom I have mentioned before, is an EE. I'm the only one he really knows who is capable of having discussions about his work. He does mainly professional witness work now, and I have helped him discussing several cases.

 

[Tainted]

I think it varies by state. Note that many states and municipalities do not have any requirements that a building's electrical system be designed/stamped by a PE no matter how big the project is. For example, I am not aware of any law in WA that prohibits me as a licensed electrical contractor and electrician from designing and installing the electrical system in even a skyscraper. I am not a PE so I cant say Im a PE, but I believe I am free to advertise that I do "electrical design" or similar.

Is this true for fire alarm too?

 

[tortuga]

For example, I am not aware of any law in WA that prohibits me as a licensed electrical contractor and electrician from designing and installing the electrical system in even a skyscraper. I am not a PE so I cant say Im a PE, but I believe I am free to advertise that I do "electrical design" or similar.

If you look at the law requiring an engineers license and the definition of "the practice of engineering" in WA https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=18.43.020 its a big broad paint brush.
The exemption in WA is probably like Oregon is where Master / Supervising Electricians can design work they build.
That is why the Master / Supervisor test in OR and WA are notoriously difficult, as your practically considered an EE.
So for example it would be illegal to draw the plan set for the sky scraper and send it out to bid.
But it would be legal for you to design / build the electrical.

There was a case here recently where a guy was discussing the timing of trafic lights in court and they cited him for practicing engineering without a license.
It happens in other states also:

State Charges 77-Year-Old for 'Practicing Engineering Without a License'

A retired North Carolina engineer volunteered his professional opinion during a lawsuit, now the state says he’s in trouble for practicing engineering without a license.

www.vice.com

 

[tortuga]

I should add the case here dragged on for years and the plaintiff appealed and actually won in federal court.
While it was ongoing the local utility here noticed it and issued new business cards to all their "engineers" that were really service planners and techs ( I often meet with these 'engineers' ). The new cards had the word engineer replaced with "technician".
When I asked one of the engineers why his card changed he said "we're not licensed electrical engineers, you gotta be an EE to have that title".

 

[Shaneyj]

I went the other way.
I had 15 yrs field experience when I started my EET degree. Took me 7 yrs to complete but I was working the whole time.
Today I’m 6 yrs into my engineering career but because Im still trunk slamming, i justify my field experience being concurrent.
I didn’t pursue licensure past journeyman and I let that lapse several years ago.
Not sure what Texas allows but I’d pursue the opportunity if it existed just to add value to my resume.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[texie]

I know of a number of electricians that went on to become EE/PEs. I also know a few that where PEs first and became licensed master/contractors. Some states will automatically allow a PE to sit for master/contractor exams. The issue I have with this is they have no practical construction experience. I can say that many EE/PEs that I have worked with that started as electricians are often far better engineers.

 

[W@ttson]

I can say that many EE/PEs that I have worked with that started as electricians are often far better engineers.

Certainly field experience adds a whole new depth to a persons perspectives.

 

[electrofelon]

If you look at the law requiring an engineers license and the definition of "the practice of engineering" in WA https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=18.43.020 its a big broad paint brush.
The exemption in WA is probably like Oregon is where Master / Supervising Electricians can design work they build.
That is why the Master / Supervisor test in OR and WA are notoriously difficult, as your practically considered an EE.
So for example it would be illegal to draw the plan set for the sky scraper and send it out to bid.
But it would be legal for you to design / build the electrical.

There was a case here recently where a guy was discussing the timing of trafic lights in court and they cited him for practicing engineering without a license.
It happens in other states also:

State Charges 77-Year-Old for 'Practicing Engineering Without a License'

A retired North Carolina engineer volunteered his professional opinion during a lawsuit, now the state says he’s in trouble for practicing engineering without a license.

www.vice.com

Tortuga, I disagree and do not see any ambiguity. I dont believe there is any "exemption" in WA, there is just no law saying that the electrical plans for certain buildings need to be done by a PE.

 

[texie]

I should also add to my previous post (#29)that in my view their is a very big difference between an EE vs an EE/PE. Many EEs in my neck of the woods are electronics and IC experts and are not required to be PEs and as such most know nothing about power/building stuff and wouldn't know even the very basics of the NEC.

 

[tortuga]

Tortuga, I disagree and do not see any ambiguity. I dont believe there is any "exemption" in WA, there is just no law saying that the electrical plans for certain buildings need to be done by a PE.

You and Chalie B would know better than me.
Its been over 20 years since I lived there.
In Oregon its ORS 479.860

 

[electrofelon]

You and Chalie B would know better than me.
Its been over 20 years since I lived there.
In Oregon its ORS 479.860

interesting law. My first thought is it seems unnecessary and a waste of ink, unless there is some other law that makes a clarification necessary. What is a "supervising electrician"?

 

[letgomywago]

interesting law. My first thought is it seems unnecessary and a waste of ink, unless there is some other law that makes a clarification necessary. What is a "supervising electrician"?

That's their "master license" name

 

[Rock86]

While the specific subject matter might not be covered in a BSEE degree, the fact that you have a degree at all -- even an art-history or Egyptology degree -- should enable you to take the exams without sitting through the classes.

For that matter, it should be an option for everybody. If you can pass the exam, either you know the material or the exam is poorly designed.

I took an inspectors exam once... one of the questions was to identify conductors #3 and the image showed "a, b, c..." hahaha

 

[tortuga]

interesting law. My first thought is it seems unnecessary and a waste of ink, unless there is some other law that makes a clarification necessary.

For one example say your designing the electrical system for your hi-rise in Seattle and for whatever reason a ampacity calculation for a duct bank is really close and you want to use 'engineering supervision' under 310.15, who can provide the 'engineering supervision' in WA?
My understanding of the Oregon law is a supervising electrician can step in and provide the 'engineering supervision' becasue they can "design, plan and lay out electrical installations" "without obtaining any other license, permit or certificate".

 

[electrofelon]

For one example say your designing the electrical system for your hi-rise in Seattle and for whatever reason a ampacity calculation for a duct bank is really close and you want to use 'engineering supervision' under 310.15, who can provide the 'engineering supervision' in WA?
My understanding of the Oregon law is a supervising electrician can step in and provide the 'engineering supervision' becasue they can "design, plan and lay out electrical installations" "without obtaining any other license, permit or certificate".

I see "engineering" as completely different than "design, plan , and layout" and Don't interpret that law as allowing an electrician to provide the "engineering supervision" required in the NEC. Of course I can't speak for the way it is actually been interpreted in Oregon, but seems like a stretch to me.

 

[tortuga]

I see "engineering" as completely different than "design, plan , and layout"

In Oregon the legal definition of the "Practice of engineering"
includes Design and Plan.

 

[Frank DuVal]

Virginia, Journeyman's licence requirement can be met with 4 year university and one year work experience.

Tradesmen Program | Virginia Department of Professional and Occupational Regulation

www.dpor.virginia.gov

Click on Static form for Journeyman and see list of requirements.