romex jockey
Senior Member
- Location
- Vermont
- Occupation
- electrician
Inspection question.
- Thread starter p51
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I think most states have someone who can make a call on these issues.
xptpcrewx
Power System Engineer
- Location
- Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
Palm Beach County, Florida - Code of Ordinances Chapter 7 - BUILDINGS AND BUILDING REGULATIONS ARTICLE IV. - AMENDMENTS TO BUILDING CODES APPLICABLE IN UNINCORPORATED AREAS Sec. 7-52. - Amendments to Florida Building Code.
105.4 Conditions of the permit. The issuance or granting of a permit shall not be construed to be a permit for, or an approval of, any violation of any of the provisions of this code or of any other federal, state, or local law, or any applicable ordinance, code, or regulation. Permits presuming to give authority to violate or cancel the provisions of this code or of any other federal, state, or local law, or any applicable ordinance, code, or regulation shall not be valid. The issuance of a permit based on construction documents and other data shall not prevent the building official from requiring the correction of errors in the construction documents and other data, requiring corrections to work already performed, or revoking the permit. No deviations from the permit may be made without written authorization. The building official is also authorized to prevent occupancy or use of a structure that is in violation of this code or of any other federal, state or local law or any applicable, ordinance, code or regulation.
105.4.1 Permit intent. A permit issued shall be construed to be a license to proceed with the work and not as authority to violate, cancel, alter or set aside any of the provisions of the technical codes, nor shall issuance of a permit prevent the building official from thereafter requiring a correction of errors in plans, construction or violations of this code.
Palm Beach County, Florida - Code of Ordinances Chapter 7 - BUILDINGS AND BUILDING REGULATIONS ARTICLE I. - IN GENERAL Sec. 7-2. - Local construction regulation board.
101.4.10 Electrical. The provisions of Chapter 27 of the Florida Building Code, Building Volume, and Part VIII - Electrical, of the Florida Building Code Residential Volume, 7 th Edition (2020) shall apply to the installation of electrical systems, including alterations, repairs, replacement, equipment, appliances, fixtures, fittings and appurtenances thereto.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Imo, this does not apply to updating the electrical system but rather to correct violations. Not having a gfci in a kitchen was not a violation when the place was wired. That is different from open splices, cables with no jb or no covers, etc.
Otherwise if I worked in a house with K&T they could make me re-wire the entire house, add outlets to code etc. I would sue them before they could make me make those changes.
p51
Member
- Location
- south Florida
No, panel in exact same spot. Also, they are not asking for just GFCI protection on existing outlets, but wanting me to add outlets in kitchen/bath as per 2017 code for kitchens.
xptpcrewx
Power System Engineer
- Location
- Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
You don't have to work on something directly to create a violation. Electrical systems are usually interdependent. The nature of contracting and work scope makes us want to think of these systems as separate, but its not always possible. Prior to modification, this was a 1950's system, now its not - its a mix between what was once allowed and what is required now. Anytime there is a grey area like this, I think it requires due diligence.
Imo, the contractor has a duty to understand the impact of their work. This certainly doesn't mean he has to replace the entire building to bring it to code, but we are talking about a couple of GFCI's... I draw the line where it is reasonable, ethical and I am not somehow liable.
The violation arises because its not a like-for-like replacement and the contractor could have employed GFCI breakers. Since the contractor doesn't necessarily have to use GFCI breakers (and said branch-circuits do not have GFCI protection), its a lack of oversight and possibly negligent from a liability standpoint. If this was somehow willful safety deficiency, and someone got hurt, I am 100% certain a county level permit wouldn't help protect anyone.
xptpcrewx
Power System Engineer
- Location
- Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
Not the entire installation but whatever is reasonably affected. For example, if a customer wants me to provide higher trip settings for a main breaker on an older installation, but I have neglected the ampacity of the service conductors, or any protection of downstream equipment currently implemented with the original design (simply because I have chosen to box myself in with my self-defined scope restricting work to the main breaker only), not only have I created violations, but I would be liable and incompetent.
xptpcrewx
Power System Engineer
- Location
- Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
xptpcrewx
Power System Engineer
- Location
- Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
It applies to permits in Palm Beach County. Thats what the OP has.
p51
Member
- Location
- south Florida
I agree with you Dennis, would this mean every time you do any electric work on a existing building (Service change, etc.) you would be required to bring the whole unit up to existing electric codes. This is why many electricians and others choose not to pull permits ! As well as enriching the unlicensed people that small contractors are already up against. In Palm Beach County if a unlicensed person is caught working they are fined $250.00, but the building Dept. has no enforcement powers, so these fines are never collected.
xptpcrewx
Power System Engineer
- Location
- Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
Imo there should always be boilerplate in the contract about how to handle scope creep, incidental/coincident/unexpected work (especially anything outside of your control), change-orders, and owner vs contractor responsibilities. Sometimes we need to spell everything out for the owner so they can make an informed decision about the risk in proceeding with the proposed work.
romex jockey
Senior Member
- Location
- Vermont
- Occupation
- electrician
xptpcrewx
Power System Engineer
- Location
- Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
if the contract was somehow deemed unenforceable or if you had liability, you would eat the cost/labor regardless.
Tulsa Electrician
Senior Member
- Location
- Tulsa
- Occupation
- Electrician
Tulsa Electrician
Senior Member
- Location
- Tulsa
- Occupation
- Electrician
It should pass an inspection with a hold on power restore until it meet the requirements of the amended code. The owner of record should receive this violation to be corrected per there own requirements.
I say give them a Call Monday. All else fails fill an appeal.
I say give them a Call Monday. All else fails fill an appeal.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I get that but my entire point is the op didn't touch the area that the inspector is red tagging the job. I realize if I make a panel a subpanel then I am responsible for any violations created but that is not what the op stated.
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
It's simple! If there were violations when the house was wired, that is what is meant by not allowing any violations. Things like GFCI and AFCI were not even a thought when the house was built/wired. If all you're doing is replacing the panel, adding things required on a new build today is not required just for a panel change.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
It's really hard to say what's required. All panel swaps are not the same. In many areas you can state the work is an upgrade or a repair. Doing any type of upgrade to the electrical system may trigger the requirement to add certain safety equipment such as smoke detectors and GFCI protected receptacles.
Since a phone call doesn't cost anything I would certainly call the inspection department and see if the head guy at least agrees with this inspector. But if they do have this as a local amendment it's not enough money to be worth a fight. Knowledge often cost a dollar or two and he will know before he bids the next panel change in that jurisdiction.
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
We do have to add smoke alarms on a panel change if they don't have them, or don't have enough. We are allowed battery operated ones for this. It is not an NEC thing, but from the State Fire Marshall's office as that's who regulates the States electrical requirements and also who the inspectors work under. I bet there is not a jurisdiction in the whole Country that requires what the OP stated they wanted added just for a panel change.
How does replacing a 15A fuse with a 15A circuit breaker affect the rest of the existing electrical system in the home to the point where new receptacles must be installed in the kitchen and bathroom?
As for "eating it," was the OP supposed to enter the home and do a full system inspection prior to contracting for the panel upgrade and then tell the homeowner that he would also have to pay for major changes to the entire electrical installation in the home? For all we know, the OP may not have even stepped foot inside the house when bidding the panel job. And there would have been no reason for him to do so.
From reading the OP's post, it appears that he was not present at the time of the inspection. My question is, why did the homeowner bring the inspector inside the house to inspect the kitchen and bathrooms when the inspection was only supposed to be for the replaced panel? Which then makes me question, what did the homeowner present to the inspector as the scope of work? Perhaps the homeowner misrepresented the scope to the inspector in order to leverage the OP to do a bunch of interior upgrades without having to pay for the work.
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