Inspector requiring kitchen counters (and cabinets) to be installed.

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MasterTheNEC said:
I know plenty of times one of my inspectors approved countertop receptacles only to find that counters were changed on final (shifted) only to end up not being within 2' of the sink...more like 2 1/2' then wanted to cry the blues...code says 2'... not my problem but they would still call and complain to city and go so far as say the inspector approved it at rough in...wrong. If the counter is in (cost spent) then less chance for change. Just trying to give you the inspectors view.
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Not the same situation as the OP has, there are countertops and finished product does not meet code. OP has finished product - that is subject to being changed one day. Would you rather see them place outlets near the floor and when cabinets are added cover them up? The installed outlets in OP comply with 210.52(4), if someone installs cabinets later who says they will be same layout on original plan and some spacing violations don't come up at that time. What if they choose to just place carts or tables against the wall instead of permanent counters?

Like I said before if in a situation where plans have to be submitted and you must install to them - then you need to have an approved plan change to omit the counters, but outside of that whatever is there at final is what inspection needs to based on.

MasterTheNEC said:
Also I know things are a bit lax out in Colorado with all that legal "POT" smokin and all..:)..but in most states Inspectors have rules they must follow as "technical assistants" to the building official. If this OP would like to take their case to the Building Official then I suggest they choose that option. Otherwise, put the counters in, get the inspection and move to the next job.

Maybe I was just a Cold Heartless Contractor before moving to the municipal world....but when I did a job I got paid or liens are filed. But that's a totally different topic for another time.
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If building official doesn't like there not being any counters then he is the one that needs to fail inspection because they are not there, not the EI. If EI wants to approve pending the building official approving the missing counters - then I don't have as much issue with that approach.
 
Sad to say kwired it does not work like that. Obviously you are not an inspector or have been a building official(or if you are your inspection department is radical) If the intended locations are to serve the countertops then I would accept no other. And to say I would accept receptacles to be cover up later....come on now...really. Also we did plenty of inspections on residential projects and in most jurisdictions no electrical plans required.
 
kwired said:
If building official doesn't like there not being any counters then he is the one that needs to fail inspection because they are not there, not the EI.
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The OP did not say they failed an inspection.

The OP said the inspector would not perform the inspection and that would be up to the areas rules and procedures

FREDKOOP said:
I have a situation where I did a house remodel, including full kitchen remodel. When doing the final inspection the inspector said that the counters had to be installed in order to do the inspection. The home owners ran out of money due to some unanticipated construction cost and cannot afford to buy the counters and cabinets at this time. The installation meets code for countertops (210.52 (C)(1) through (C)(5) and for wall space general requirements (with counters not there). The inspector would not or could not point out any violations of the code, only that the counters had to be installed in order for him to inspect. When pressed the head electrical inspector stated the we were violation of "NEC 2011- 210.52 (A) -(C) 5" and that "Cabinets and counters will need to be installed."

Thoughts?
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Again I point out our own opinions and experiences are meaningless, this jurisdiction can make there own inspection requirements.
 
iwire said:
The OP did not say they failed an inspection.

The OP said the inspector would not perform the inspection and that would be up to the areas rules and procedures



Again I point out our own opinions and experiences are meaningless, this jurisdiction can make there own inspection requirements.
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Bob is right. Realize, the inspection process is not part of the NEC nor is required by the NEC. Somewhere in the jurisdiction's laws there will be words to the effect of, 'a final electrical inspection shall take place upon (fill in the blank).

Before doing something like putting up faux cabinets and counter tops, I would find out the exact wording of the inspection process. Where I live, that process is gone over every code cycle in our code update class. The class is required for us to keep our licenses. It's a local rule here that a final will take place upon completion of the building.
 
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MasterTheNEC said:
Also I know things are a bit lax out in Colorado with all that legal "POT" smokin and all..:).
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We were always a lot more laid back than the east coast, just not as laid back as the west coast; they are our biggest competitors.
but in most states Inspectors have rules they must follow as "technical assistants" to the building official. If this OP would like to take their case to the Building Official then I suggest they choose that option. Otherwise, put the counters in, get the inspection and move to the next job.....
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I went back and re-read the OP and it is a little confusing. I thought he said the cabinets were in and just need counter tops, but now I'm not sure. If there are no cabinets in the kitchen then I agree there is good reason not to sign off on a final. If there are cabinets installed and only counter tops are missing then I would think that the inspector would have the option of signing off with a clear conscience.

I stand by my statement that an inspector has no reason to concern himself with what will be done after he leaves. I also stand firm in my belief that inspectors are not liable for wrong installations.
 
MasterTheNEC said:
Sad to say kwired it does not work like that. Obviously you are not an inspector or have been a building official(or if you are your inspection department is radical) If the intended locations are to serve the countertops then I would accept no other. And to say I would accept receptacles to be cover up later....come on now...really. Also we did plenty of inspections on residential projects and in most jurisdictions no electrical plans required.
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You need to go back to post #19 and answer point for point. Up to now, you haven't quoted a bit of code. I'd be calling DCA on you right about now...
 
gadfly56 said:
You need to go back to post #19 and answer point for point. Up to now, you haven't quoted a bit of code. I'd be calling DCA on you right about now...
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And as Marky the Sparky pointed out in post 44, there is no code to cite until it is determined if the counter needs to be present for inspection. If plans are not submitted for prior approval and you must follow those plans, then what conditions may or may not be present at time of final is what inspection need to be based on - not any "what if's" that could come down the road. But some AHJ's feel the need to have as much control of things as possible
 
kwired said:
And as Marky the Sparky pointed out in post 44, there is no code to cite until it is determined if the counter needs to be present for inspection. If plans are not submitted for prior approval and you must follow those plans, then what conditions may or may not be present at time of final is what inspection need to be based on - not any "what if's" that could come down the road. But some AHJ's feel the need to have as much control of things as possible
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fmtjfw's point is that is doesn't matter if counters are there or not. The installation, from an electrical perspective, is code compliant either way. The head inspector was making the claim that the NEC required the counters to be installed, and I just don't see that.
 
gadfly56 said:
fmtjfw's point is that is doesn't matter if counters are there or not. The installation, from an electrical perspective, is code compliant either way. The head inspector was making the claim that the NEC required the counters to be installed, and I just don't see that.
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Code compliant or not is irrelevant.

If the areas policy is that the work has to be complete before a final inspection is done that is the end of it. It's not an NEC issue it is a local procedure issue.
 
FREDKOOP said:
I have a situation where I did a house remodel, including full kitchen remodel. When doing the final inspection the inspector said that the counters had to be installed in order to do the inspection. The home owners ran out of money due to some unanticipated construction cost and cannot afford to buy the counters and cabinets at this time. The installation meets code for countertops (210.52 (C)(1) through (C)(5) and for wall space general requirements (with counters not there). The inspector would not or could not point out any violations of the code, only that the counters had to be installed in order for him to inspect. When pressed the head electrical inspector stated the we were violation of "NEC 2011- 210.52 (A) -(C) 5" and that "Cabinets and counters will need to be installed."

Thoughts?
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yeah. go get two sheets of plywood.

rip them 16" wide. put 2x4's along the front and
back edges, and screw them to the wall at the appropriate height.
put some kickers down to the floor.

you are in a couple hours, and $100 in material. you get a final, you
get paid. you move on.
 
frank everingham said:
cancel the electric permit and let the building dept handle there end
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I agree.

I see this happen from time to time. In Michigan, at least, a significant number of re-mods don't get finished. And I mean at all, not just being late.

The EC will be better off if he collects the money for what he has done, cancel the electrical permit or just let it expire, and tell the customer to call you when they have everything completed.

Consider the position the customer has put the EC in. Because of the customer's piss poor planning, the electrician now has to battle city hall in order to get paid. That isn't fair to the EC, puts him at odds with the inspector and all for probably free. Remember, the job ran out of money. If the customer can't afford counter tops, how can they afford the electrician?
 
gadfly56 said:
fmtjfw's point is that is doesn't matter if counters are there or not. The installation, from an electrical perspective, is code compliant either way. The head inspector was making the claim that the NEC required the counters to be installed, and I just don't see that.
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I agree. The inspector in OP was basing his actions on what if when the counters are installed the layout doesn't comply with the receptacle layout.

Fulthrotl said:
yeah. go get two sheets of plywood.

rip them 16" wide. put 2x4's along the front and
back edges, and screw them to the wall at the appropriate height.
put some kickers down to the floor.

you are in a couple hours, and $100 in material. you get a final, you
get paid. you move on.
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Based on inspector logic in the OP - why should he accept that install? There is a strong chance those "temporary" counters that work with the current receptacle layout may not work with the permanent counter layout:roll:

frank everingham said:
cancel the electric permit and let the building dept handle there end
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Depends on the AHJ and their procedures whether or not that is even possible.
 
Cal1947

Cal1947

GoldDigger said:
My take would be that since there are not countertops, there is no NEC requirement for outlets beyond what would be needed for empty wall space.
But if there were approved plans as part of the permit process, I can see a problem.
Maybe amend the permit, with the plan to pull a new permit when the cabinets and countertops get installed? That would give the inspector a second crack at the electrical.
Or fill in with very cheap dummy cabinets and countertop, with the materials to be changed later?
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Put a piece of plywood on top of two wooden boxes and a same box on wall
 
K8MHZ said:
... Because of the customer's piss poor planning, the electrician now has to...
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Interesting comment, considering:
FREDKOOP said:
.... The home owners ran out of money due to some unanticipated construction cost ...
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Tell me, how much do you budget for "unanticipated construction cost".

Some years back I had a supervisor approach the engineering pack and request a paper on possible impact from all of the things we didn't know about. Yep he did - really :slaphead:

I don't work for him any more - either.:rotflmao:

ice
 
K8MHZ said:
I agree.

I see this happen from time to time. In Michigan, at least, a significant number of re-mods don't get finished. And I mean at all, not just being late.

The EC will be better off if he collects the money for what he has done, cancel the electrical permit or just let it expire, and tell the customer to call you when they have everything completed.

Consider the position the customer has put the EC in. Because of the customer's piss poor planning, the electrician now has to battle city hall in order to get paid. That isn't fair to the EC, puts him at odds with the inspector and all for probably free. Remember, the job ran out of money. If the customer can't afford counter tops, how can they afford the electrician?
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Many things happen out there.
loss of job
cost of job exeeded estimates
Other unexpected expenses.
Most people are on a budget. When that goes south so does the project.
there must be a method of the Bldg dept. to deal with this. It happens all the time.
 
iwire said:
Code compliant or not is irrelevant.

If the areas policy is that the work has to be complete before a final inspection is done that is the end of it. It's not an NEC issue it is a local procedure issue.
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The head electrical inspector said the N E C required the counters to be installed. NOT some local policy. Maybe you can find this requirement in the N E C. I can't.
 
gadfly56 said:
The head electrical inspector said the N E C required the counters to be installed. NOT some local policy. Maybe you can find this requirement in the N E C. I can't.
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Maybe he is arguing that the NEC requires receptacles serving the countertops. If you do not have countertops the receptacles cannot be serving them. Without countertops the required two SABCs cannot exist, right? Clear as mud.
:angel:
Or to state it another way, you can't have SABCs unless there is someplace to set the SAs. :)

Kind of bass-ackward logic, but it has a certain appeal....
 
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