lighting outlet

[Jim W in Tampa]

Because there is a box with wiring in the ceiling does not mean it is a lighting outlet. It could be there for many reasons, a smoke detector is one that comes to mind.

If a fan is installed to a ceiling box, that box is no longer a " proposed" lighting outlet, it is a fan outlet, just as the ceiling box with a smoke detector is not a lighting outlet.

If a box is in the ceiling and one would call it a lighting outlet, what happens when someone installs something other than a lighting fixture? Does it stay a lighting outlet, because it is on the ceiling?

If I was inspecting this job, I would say it does not comply, just as the inspector did in the original OP.

Would you pass it with a light kit ?

 

[pjg]

I hate to keep beating this poor horse. But the definition of lighting outlet states that is is "intended for a fixture..., "not "shall have a fixture installed" Now where does it say it has to be used for a fixture only that it is installed and switched and available for a fixture even with the fan installed it is still in the ceiling and could be used for a light fixture(Just remove the fan). in the example of a smoke detector that doesn't meet the definition in this case(not switched)

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I hate to keep beating this poor horse. But the definition of lighting outlet states that is is "intended for a fixture..., "not "shall have a fixture installed" Now where does it say it has to be used for a fixture only that it is installed and switched and available for a fixture even with the fan installed it is still in the ceiling and could be used for a light fixture(Just remove the fan). in the example of a smoke detector that doesn't meet the definition in this case(not switched)

The argument is that by placing a fan there your intent changed.As i said earlier the fan could come down or light kit added.He was pushing a bit hard on i minor violation that was easy to fix anytime they wanted the light fixture.No electrician even needed to fix this.Anyone able to remove a blank and install the light could handle taking down the fan.

 

[George Stolz]

Anyone able to remove a blank and install the light could handle taking down the fan.

Uh...not to...er...uh...that's a pretty broad statement, Jim. I'm pretty sure plenty of electricians on this forum have recieved offers to hang ceiling fans that husband started hanging or didn't feel comfortable hanging. That's practically the same thing.

That said, the current requirement would require someone with some electrical skill to hang a luminaire down the road, if a blank is installed in the first place, so it's not germaine to the discussion, I don't think.

But the definition of lighting outlet states that is is "intended for a fixture..., "not "shall have a fixture installed"

If you install a ceiling fan box, and then install a ceiling fan, then how is the inspector to know that you intend to remove the fan for a luminaire someday? Can't you see the stretch?

No where does it say it has to be used for a fixture only that it is installed and switched and available for a fixture even with the fan installed it is still in the ceiling and could be used for a light fixture(Just remove the fan).

Look at this one more different way. Let's take it for granted that the inspector in this scenario can only inspect to the NEC, and can't enforce any other document. Okay?

You install a smoke detector in the room, and a smoke detector only. No switch, no round box in the center of the room, and no switched receptacle.

The inspector walks in and cites 210.70(A)(1). You say, "No, that single gang in the ceiling is my lighting outlet, and the circuit breaker in the panel on that wall there, marked SWD, is my switch." Under protest, the inspector signs off.

Come trim time, you install a smoke detector in the ceiling, and the inspector once again cites 210.70(A)(1). "You never intended to install a luminaire there, so it is an outlet for a smoke detector, not a lighting outlet."

You retort, "That can come down at any point they'd like to install a luminaire or a lampholder there. I'm just installing a smoke to cover the hole in the meantime. It will always be available for use for a luminaire."

Do you have a leg to stand on?

How can we demonstrate our intentions? We buy a round box, and wire it to a switch.

The code doesn't ask for a round box and a switch - if it did, this would be open and shut. The code asks for intentions, which the history of mankind demonstrates, can and will be misinterpreted.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim W in Tampa
Anyone able to remove a blank and install the light could handle taking down the fan.

Uh...not to...er...uh...that's a pretty broad statement, Jim. I'm pretty sure plenty of electricians on this forum have recieved offers to hang ceiling fans that husband started hanging or didn't feel comfortable hanging. That's practically the same thing.

That said, the current requirement would require someone with some electrical skill to hang a luminaire down the road, if a blank is installed in the first place, so it's not germaine to the discussion, I don't think."

Now hang on,i think what i said was if he is able to install the light then he is smart enough to REMOVE a fan.Never gave him credit to INSTALL a fan.And as for qualified nec does not define that very well.Some of the electricians i see working are not qualified to install a switch.All nec said was we shall have the outlet,says nothing about ever using it.That blank might be there for the next 100 years.If they wanted a light fixture they would have said so.Its a box that is switched and intended for a light.I intended to be rich by the time i was 30.The word INTENDED is just a filler to meet a word count.How can you say i dont intend to remove that fan and install a keyless light fixture ?I want one in black and havnt found it yet so since its required i cover all openings i used this fan.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Its a box that is switched and intended for a light.I intended to be rich by the time i was 30.

And when becoming 30, that is, becoming 30 is completed, is the money there or not?

If the money is there at 30, at completion, then you are rich.

If the money is not there at 30, at completion, then you are not rich.

At completion, if the lampholder or luminaire is there the Outlet is a Lighting Outlet.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

And when becoming 30, that is, becoming 30 is completed, is the money there or not?

If the money is there at 30, at completion, then you are rich.

If the money is not there at 30, at completion, then you are not rich.

At completion, if the lampholder or luminaire is there the Outlet is a Lighting Outlet.

It could be there if you take down the fan.But while the fan is there it is a fan outlet so guess it cant be a light outlet.This one of them you cant win deals.

 

[al hildenbrand]

It could be there if you take down the fan.But while the fan is there it is a fan outlet so guess it cant be a light outlet.This one of them you cant win deals.

I could have the money if I'd made the money. So, even though I intended to make the money, I still have nothing to spend when I don't have the money.

Intention + no money = not rich.

Intention + no light = no Lighting Outlet.

No utilization equipment at the ceiling box, not even an Outlet.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Ok this how i would handle this.Mr inspector,i have an outlet that is switched and can use it someday for a light fixture that is not required.You can either pass it as it is or i will remove fan and install blank.After you pass it you know its going back up.Now you know my intent.

Jim ,after i leave it nolonger is my problem.Take it down so i can do my job.

 

[iwire]

Intention + no light = no Lighting Outlet.

Glad your not a local inspector.

Box + White round blank + a fixture to be installed later = lighting outlet.


Back in the 80s when I did a lot of condos we would almost never installed the ceiling fixtures before we got our final.


The people who later would buy the units would get their own light fixtures and I am sure they pulled a permit to install them.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Glad your not a local inspector.

Box + White round blank + a fixture to be installed later = lighting outlet.


Back in the 80s when I did a lot of condos we would almost never installed the ceiling fixtures before we got our final.


The people who later would buy the units would get their own light fixtures and I am sure they pulled a permit to install them.

Makes more sinse to let them pick what they want.You met the code and a permit depending on where your at might not even be required.We had lighting stores come in after finals.Guess it was cheaper that way.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Mr inspector,i have an outlet that is switched and can use it someday for a light fixture that is not required.

Well, whether the illumination is required or not is the central question. The NEC doesn't "require" the illumination. I'm not enough of a student of other codes, especially the building codes that regulate single family dwellings, to be able to quote chapter and verse on illumination. Perhaps some of our other forum members have that.

I do know what my local jurisdiction (the State of Minnesota) tells me. I can't see that the use of the word "intended" in the definition of Lighting Outlet overrides or supercedes the building code illumination requirements.

 

[al hildenbrand]

We had lighting stores come in after finals.Guess it was cheaper that way.

Interesting.

While that can be done here, as long as no AHJ finds out about it, unless the lighting store installer is backed by a licensed electrical contractor and is a licensed electrician (both), the store and the installer are violating State statute and can be prosecuted severely.

Oh, those differences in jurisdictions.

 

[mpd]

how would you contractors feel if the inspector required you to be on site to prove to him that the blanked off ceiling boxes are switched controlled?

 

[iwire]

how would you contractors feel if the inspector required you to be on site to prove to him that the blanked off ceiling boxes are switched controlled?

I don't have any idea as that entire concept is hard for me to comprehend.

I don't recall seeing an inspector checking the operation of my circuits. The law here requires a one year warranty, if we leave items not working we will be back to fix it inspector or not.

 

[JohnE]

how would you contractors feel if the inspector required you to be on site to prove to him that the blanked off ceiling boxes are switched controlled?

Irate, aggravated, po'd, etc. Inspectors can make contractor's lives miserable if they choose to. I've only come across one jurisdiction that requires me or one of my guys to be on site for an inspection, and it is a major pita. Not to be misunderstood, I feel there are times when it is appropriate that I be there, but as an exception, not a rule.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

how would you contractors feel if the inspector required you to be on site to prove to him that the blanked off ceiling boxes are switched controlled?

No problem with it if i had electric,but here we dont get power till he is long gone.That is what lawyers are for If he wants to play that game.Inspecting is one thing ,harrasment is another.Its his job to inspect not mine.Have had a few asking me to open something up for them to see.If i am there no problem with it.I dont hide bad work so inspect all he wants.I would gladly go for a demand to see the fixture installed,why not ? They still need installed.But can he require fixtures that are not required ? That requires a local amendment.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Irate, aggravated, po'd, etc. Inspectors can make contractor's lives miserable if they choose to. I've only come across one jurisdiction that requires me or one of my guys to be on site for an inspection, and it is a major pita. Not to be misunderstood, I feel there are times when it is appropriate that I be there, but as an exception, not a rule.

And you pass this off as a charge to the GC and let them fight it out.Personally i rather be there for an inspector.Monday morning i will be there for 2 finals.They both been walked by me and i am tougher on myself than they usually are.But if they can find something legit that i missed then so be it.99% of inspectors only do there job.The 1% are #^R@#!

 

[allenwayne]

And you pass this off as a charge to the GC and let them fight it out.Personally i rather be there for an inspector.Monday morning i will be there for 2 finals.They both been walked by me and i am tougher on myself than they usually are.But if they can find something legit that i missed then so be it.99% of inspectors only do there job.The 1% are #^R@#!

How can they require you to be there for an inspection ???? Now if there is a local addendum that says the EC must be there for an inspection yes then the tag is valid but do we have to hold the hands of these inspectors after all they are inspecting our work.We are not the AHj just the EC`S.Jim I too have the same attitude I take the toughest inspectors view points and walk a job as if I was him inspecting the job.I walk it as if I was C#&Y.He`s the toughest I know out there.I`ve had inspectors say why are you doing that.I answer is it code compliant??? Yes more than compliant.Well then sign it off.

 

[JohnE]

I look at my jobs through what I would imagine to be the strictest inspection. I've found that (at least in new construction) the only times it would be beneficial for me to be there is when an inspector doesn't understand the code. Like the time one told me that a disposal can not be on a 15 amp receptacle! Or the time one called me and asked "where is the oxide inhibiter". Or the time....you get the idea.