lighting outlet

[iwire]

IMO, there should be a proposal submitted for the 2011 to fix this, as any rational person would accept a ceiling fan with a light kit as meeting the intention of 210.70.

How about this;

90.4(B)Common sense. No interpretations of this code will be made that go against common sense.

 

[roger]

Bob, the problem is, Common sense is dead.

Roger

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Bob, the problem is, Common sense is dead.

Roger

I will print this and hang over my desk ,its great hang it next to the one about a handshake is all you need

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Jim, I don't, and I don't think most inspectors do either.

Roger

But his job is to enforce the code as written not how he thinks it should be.This the real problem here,often nec says things that are worded poorly or even go past common sinse.Can an inspector make up his own code ? So now the OP still has violation even after the suggested fix.Will he win ? He removes fan and puts on blank and after mr inspector leaves ---------------------------------

 

[roger]

I will print this and hang over my desk ,its great hang it next to the one about a handshake is all you need

Roger

 

[George Stolz]

Wonder why electricians drink.

LMAO

Only us goofballs with too much time on our hands.

 

[George Stolz]

How about this;

90.4(B)Common sense. No interpretations of this code will be made that go against common sense.

Well, I'd say common sense should call for a luminaire in every habitable room, not a lighting outlet.

I've never been a master of common sense.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Dare you try and find good help down here.Handed my helper 4 two foot wraps to hang on friday,took him 4 hours and he is one of our better men.After a while you just stop even trying.I spent all day fixing goofs on 2 buildings so i can get finals on monday.Stupid stuff like panel covers hung upside down,wires not even landed on breakers but cover was on.Wouldnt i look stupid if inspector pulled cover off.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I came across the UL directory for ceiling fans and light kits. The way that it is worded, the UL does not seem to consider a ceiling fan with a light kit accessory installed to be a "luminaire."

Very interesting reference, George. Below I lift the really interesting snip of text for GPRT (Fans, Ceiling Suspended):

Light kits intended for use with ceiling-suspended fans are listed as Fan Accessories under this product category. They are provided with marking on the light kit, on the packaging carton and in the instructions to indicate the fan models with which they are suitable.

Try as I will, I'm coming up empty for anything that talks about "Fan Accessories".

As an aside, considering Charlie B's hypothetical argument:

The thing that is directly connected is a motor, not a light.

I submit that neither the motor nor the light are directly supported at the outlet, rather the fan fittings and raceway that house the fan conductors are supported by the ceiling box and/or the ceiling structure. The motor is supported by the Fan raceway, as is the housing that contains the motor electronics and the conductor that is "intended to connect to a "Fan Accessory light kit". The Fan Accessory light kit, in turn, is supported by the housing. The lighting outlet or plain old outlet at the ceiling box is the end of the Premises Wiring (System) and the beginning of the Fan conductors.

The Fan conductor that connects to the Fan Accessory light kit is a separate conductor from the motor conductor. Both conductors are capable of direct connection at the outlet in the ceiling box.

The test, to me, of whether the ceiling box is an Outlet or a Lighting Outlet, is whether a lampholder, etc., is actually connected to the end of the lighting conductor in the Fan raceway, at the completion of the electrical work covered by my permit.

 

[Gomer]

The lighting outlet

The lighting outlet

I think its pretty cut and dry. The EC installed the outlet as required by the NEC. It really should not matter wether you hang a disco ball, model air plane,light fixture,blank cover or ceiling fan from it there is still a "lighting outlet" and that is what matters right? The HO wants it that way and they pay the bill.

Most of what I've read by the "electrcians" in this forum need to reread thier code book and LOOK at the words that are there. Read only the words that are there because no matter what you or the ahj "think" that is what we all make our living with. One more time the "LIGHTING OUTLET" is in place per as required correct? What is the problem?

 

[roger]

One more time the "LIGHTING OUTLET" is in place per as required correct?

No it's not in the inspectors opinion, and he has the hammer. Go back and read all this thread again.

Your argument would do nothing to overturn his ruling.

This inspector could start his argument the same as you did,

I think its pretty cut and dry

Roger

 

[al hildenbrand]

the "LIGHTING OUTLET" is in place per as required correct? What is the problem?

First, welcome to the Forum.

Second, the Code doesn't say that the EC should install the outlet as required by the NEC. . .using your own advice, "to reread their code book and LOOK at the words that are there", the NEC says:

wall switch-controlled lighting outlet

The problem comes when looking at the Article 100 definition of the 2-word term "lighting outlet". The word "intended" is, at best, awkward.

PJG's opening question, involving a bedroom with one switch controlling only a paddlefan without a light kit (no other switches controlling any other outlets) begs the question of what the ceiling box that the fan is mounted to, and the contained wiring, can be called.

In my opinion it is definitely an Outlet. . .but not specialized enough to be a Lighting Outlet.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

No it's not in the inspectors opinion, and he has the hammer. Go back and read all this thread again.

Your argument would do nothing to overturn his ruling.

This inspector could start his argument the same as you did,

Roger

While i dont see a hazard from this install i think he will hold up your job.Take the fan down and install the blank.Let him see the fan sitting on the floor and a screw driver on top of the ladder under the box.Better yet install a keyless.Now he knows your intent without a dought,just smile at him and say you win LOL

 

[pjg]

I passed my final with mutual agreement- the fan is still there.the ESI passed it with a letter from the HO. I did talk with the CBO unofficailly . The cbo felt the lighting outlet was still there and was installed as intended even though the fan was installed.

Lots of interesting discussion.

Thanks for all the interest

 

[charlie b]

The test, to me, of whether the ceiling box is an Outlet or a Lighting Outlet, is whether a lampholder, etc., is actually connected to the end of the lighting conductor in the Fan raceway, at the completion of the electrical work covered by my permit.

There you go again. That's the second time I've had to agree with you, and in the same thread no less!

 

[al hildenbrand]

There you go again. That's the second time I've had to agree with you, and in the same thread no less!

Awww. . .

Stop it now!

You're embarressing me.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

hmmm so what is the fan attached to ? Light outlet ?
Just glad this worked out without need of a killing.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Just glad this worked out without need of a killing.

LOL. . . .

 

[roger]

Just glad this worked out without need of a killing.

LOL. . . .

I second that LOL.

Roger

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Because there is a box with wiring in the ceiling does not mean it is a lighting outlet. It could be there for many reasons, a smoke detector is one that comes to mind.

If a fan is installed to a ceiling box, that box is no longer a " proposed" lighting outlet, it is a fan outlet, just as the ceiling box with a smoke detector is not a lighting outlet.

If a box is in the ceiling and one would call it a lighting outlet, what happens when someone installs something other than a lighting fixture? Does it stay a lighting outlet, because it is on the ceiling?

If I was inspecting this job, I would say it does not comply, just as the inspector did in the original OP.