mbrooke
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Freudian slip?
No auto correct- as per usual. Changing Lose to Loose, enduring to endearing, concise to consist, ect.
Lobster tank GFCI protection?
- Thread starter kp542
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No auto correct- as per usual. Changing Lose to Loose, enduring to endearing, concise to consist, ect.
mbrooke
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Correct- Technically sputtering based on paschens criteria for 120 volts- but you would still be correct by using UL's definition of emotion of light and volitization of electrodes.
I know how to read them- hence why a flag immediately went up seeing the instant trip threshold- looked at the box to the top left and the type of breaker at top.
0.75 seconds? My chart says 1 cycle at 60Hz or less than 0.02 seconds. Also 6 x 20= 120 amps at which magnetic trip begins.
https://download.schneider-electric...2.1080103655.1532924957-1088240790.1532924957
garage
2 pole plug, cracked/compromised insul and wet
wet floor
wet hands
20/1 or egc will do nothing
guess that is why the nec requires it
Correct, if I pick up a bare section of cord an EGC will do nothing. The IEC calls this direct contact and only a GFCI will protect me. Here I fully agree with you and this is the secondary reason
mbrooke
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*emition
Auto correct is freuding! :lol:
Auto correct is freuding! :lol:
the 0.75 is the shock duration chart
the 1 sec is the cb trip
your cb chart is also 1 sec at 800%
you are reading it wrong, inst ~ 11 x Ir
mbrooke
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mbrooke
Batteries Included
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- United States
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FWIW, here is a nifty restive chart of the human body:
https://youtu.be/OBYzvkY2-eA?t=13m55s
I do not dispute that, but its safe to say POCO systems are not one of those areas. Which is fine, I know nothing of mining, auto/ship/aircraft, controls automation, telecom, radio, IT and so forth.
I disagree- it started off 1968 for under water fixtures as one method of protecting them from shocking people. 1971 it became mandated for construction sites. Then came outdoor resi receptacles.
You are saying that the circuit impedance and breaker response time can kill someone due to elevated frame voltage for extended time during a line to case fault...
hey!!! I represent that! lol
I may be old, and terse (you try posting on an iphone
but ornery and cranky?!? lol, frustrated for wasting time trying to explain it
ok, I come across as such at times, but really, no emotional content, no ill will
just being a smart @$$
Be humble :thumbsup:
For indirect contact bonding and grounding provide superior and complete protection against shock and electrocution.
mbrooke
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Just so we are on the same page regarding direct vs indirect:
wrong
top of curve is at 1 sec
but doesn't matter
at 60 A could be 100 sec
the mistake you repeatedly make is you think the egc is ALWAYS in the ckt when a person is shocked
it usually is not, the person is the fault path
or the person is in series with it
seldom parallel
obviously that reduces exposure, touch potential, but not current
but even with it in a large percentage of cases the victim dies or is injured
by your logic since all ckts have an egc there can never be shock injury
mine is it does little to provide personnel protection
hence gfci's in locations where shock is most likely
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mbrooke
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Ok- where does a current of 275 amps fall?
For the sake of the discussion that is what I have in mind. Yes its possible to lose the EGC and have the frame energized or a person comes directly in the contact with a hot.
Usually? Sounds like we have a lot of missing EGCs. Truthfully we do in regards to 2 prong appliances...
Here you certainly need a GFCI. Do you have statistics? Maybe this could ease things.
As long as the EGC is there and the appliance isn't being thrown in a pool or serviced while live, it will never be a shock risk.
Of course ground pins break, cords fray, people do stupid stuff on top of that so a GFCI is not a bad idea.
romex jockey
Senior Member
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- Vermont
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- electrician
There is a, what i'd coin 'urban legend' that's circulated for quite some time, of a spark who held both noodle & hot in each hand , load side gfci, and could not let go.
Perhaps he wore quality sneakers?
~RJ~
Perhaps he wore quality sneakers?
~RJ~
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
Two Thoughts
Two Thoughts
Nobody ever comes on here and asks, "Should I put my submersible well pump on a gfi? I'm kinda worried because it is 240V, has several hundred feet of underground wire feeding it, and has wire splices that live underwater for decades."
Is there a major difference between a lobster tank and an aquarium? There has to be a few million aquariums out there that don't have gfci protection and everybody is surviving and making it to work and school everyday.
Two Thoughts
Nobody ever comes on here and asks, "Should I put my submersible well pump on a gfi? I'm kinda worried because it is 240V, has several hundred feet of underground wire feeding it, and has wire splices that live underwater for decades."
Is there a major difference between a lobster tank and an aquarium? There has to be a few million aquariums out there that don't have gfci protection and everybody is surviving and making it to work and school everyday.
jumper
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- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
There really was no argument that GFCI was not required.
A couple of us said for this particular situation we probably would go ahead and add it.
For me in particular, given my past experience in colleges and restaurants, I would GFCI the tank. A lot of different inexperienced hands could be involved in its daily use.
goldstar
Senior Member
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Are we headed for the longest thread in the Forum :?:lol:
kwired
Electron manager
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If barefoot on a wood or carpeted floor it has no reason to trip a GFCI.
I have grabbed 120 volt "hot" conductor many times on wood/carpet and never felt a thing, you just need to make sure you don't touch anything of different potential at same time. Older I get the less I will do that. The theory still works, it is what you might miss that is at different potential is what will get you.
mbrooke
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Not even close- YET- we still have this contender :lol:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=192670
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
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- Austin, TX, USA
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- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Not even close- YET- we still have this contender :lol:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=192670
And that one is nowhere near as long as this one:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=151414
kwired
Electron manager
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- NE Nebraska
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- EC
Does that one count?
jumper
Senior Member
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- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
No.
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Why not? It's on "the Forum" and makes about as much sense as this thread and the "single phase vs. two phases" one. It stays on topic, too.
https://joejaworski.wordpress.com/2007/09/06/aquarist-found-dead/
Aquarist Found Dead
I’m talking about placing your hands in your aquarium and getting electrocuted. All because you failed to install $15 worth of equipment. Not only you, but the $1,000 you spent on livestock over the past year would be fried too. Besides laying dead next to your tank, your aquarium will turn into black soup within hours. Both you and your aquarium will smell pretty bad.
You need to eliminate yourself from ever being part of the ground loop, and the easiest and cheapest way to do this is to install a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupt) outlet. These sell for about $10 at Home Depot. You can buy the kind that replaces your existing wall outlet or ones that are built-in to an extension cord. Either one works. The point is,
An aquarium ground probe won’t protect you from electrocution. You must have BOTH a ground probe and a GFCI.
Here’s a real life story. A few months ago I woke up to find one of my tanks, a 20 gallon setup, dark and quiet. It had lost power. I checked the powerstrip and the pilot light was off but it was plugged into the wall. I quickly realized that the GFCI Outlet had tripped. I pushed the reset button on the outlet to restore power and it wouldn’t stay in. I figured the GFCI outlet had crapped out. I ran an extension cord over to the tank from a regular (non-GFCI) outlet and plugged the powerstrip in. Viola! The lights came on, the pumps started up, and everything was fine.
Being an electrical engineer, I was very curious about the defective GFCI outlet. I plugged everything back in to the GFCI and then started unplugging each cord one at a time. When I got to a Maxi-Jet 1200, the GFCI stopped tripping. I plugged the Maxi-Jet back in and sure enough, it tripped again and killed the power. I grabbed my voltmeter and put one probe in the water and the other to ground. I plugged the tank back in and read 114 volts. Holy xxxx– If I had put my hands in the tank, I wouldn’t be writing this at all. Or maybe doing so from the intensive care ward. No doubt that I would have been electrocuted if it wasn’t for that GFCI outlet.
Aquarist Found Dead
I’m talking about placing your hands in your aquarium and getting electrocuted. All because you failed to install $15 worth of equipment. Not only you, but the $1,000 you spent on livestock over the past year would be fried too. Besides laying dead next to your tank, your aquarium will turn into black soup within hours. Both you and your aquarium will smell pretty bad.
You need to eliminate yourself from ever being part of the ground loop, and the easiest and cheapest way to do this is to install a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupt) outlet. These sell for about $10 at Home Depot. You can buy the kind that replaces your existing wall outlet or ones that are built-in to an extension cord. Either one works. The point is,
An aquarium ground probe won’t protect you from electrocution. You must have BOTH a ground probe and a GFCI.
Here’s a real life story. A few months ago I woke up to find one of my tanks, a 20 gallon setup, dark and quiet. It had lost power. I checked the powerstrip and the pilot light was off but it was plugged into the wall. I quickly realized that the GFCI Outlet had tripped. I pushed the reset button on the outlet to restore power and it wouldn’t stay in. I figured the GFCI outlet had crapped out. I ran an extension cord over to the tank from a regular (non-GFCI) outlet and plugged the powerstrip in. Viola! The lights came on, the pumps started up, and everything was fine.
Being an electrical engineer, I was very curious about the defective GFCI outlet. I plugged everything back in to the GFCI and then started unplugging each cord one at a time. When I got to a Maxi-Jet 1200, the GFCI stopped tripping. I plugged the Maxi-Jet back in and sure enough, it tripped again and killed the power. I grabbed my voltmeter and put one probe in the water and the other to ground. I plugged the tank back in and read 114 volts. Holy xxxx– If I had put my hands in the tank, I wouldn’t be writing this at all. Or maybe doing so from the intensive care ward. No doubt that I would have been electrocuted if it wasn’t for that GFCI outlet.
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