Lobster tank GFCI protection?

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Ingenieur said:
https://joejaworski.wordpress.com/2007/09/06/aquarist-found-dead/

Aquarist Found Dead
I’m talking about placing your hands in your aquarium and getting electrocuted. All because you failed to install $15 worth of equipment. Not only you, but the $1,000 you spent on livestock over the past year would be fried too. Besides laying dead next to your tank, your aquarium will turn into black soup within hours. Both you and your aquarium will smell pretty bad.

You need to eliminate yourself from ever being part of the ground loop, and the easiest and cheapest way to do this is to install a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupt) outlet. These sell for about $10 at Home Depot. You can buy the kind that replaces your existing wall outlet or ones that are built-in to an extension cord. Either one works. The point is,
An aquarium ground probe won’t protect you from electrocution. You must have BOTH a ground probe and a GFCI.

Here’s a real life story. A few months ago I woke up to find one of my tanks, a 20 gallon setup, dark and quiet. It had lost power. I checked the powerstrip and the pilot light was off but it was plugged into the wall. I quickly realized that the GFCI Outlet had tripped. I pushed the reset button on the outlet to restore power and it wouldn’t stay in. I figured the GFCI outlet had crapped out. I ran an extension cord over to the tank from a regular (non-GFCI) outlet and plugged the powerstrip in. Viola! The lights came on, the pumps started up, and everything was fine.

Being an electrical engineer, I was very curious about the defective GFCI outlet. I plugged everything back in to the GFCI and then started unplugging each cord one at a time. When I got to a Maxi-Jet 1200, the GFCI stopped tripping. I plugged the Maxi-Jet back in and sure enough, it tripped again and killed the power. I grabbed my voltmeter and put one probe in the water and the other to ground. I plugged the tank back in and read 114 volts. Holy xxxx– If I had put my hands in the tank, I wouldn’t be writing this at all. Or maybe doing so from the intensive care ward. No doubt that I would have been electrocuted if it wasn’t for that GFCI outlet.
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Was your aquarium in a room with wood, carpet, or other non conductive flooring? Was there grounded items nearby maybe concrete wall? If nothing grounded in the vicinity I still say your electrocution risk was much lower then if there is grounded items nearby.

We typically don't install GFCI's in living rooms, bedrooms and similar rooms. Aquariums do end up in those rooms. And the electrician that wired the house may never know. Risk still isn't all that great.

Risk probably isn't as high as it once was in bathrooms - mostly because of non metallic plumbing, I won't say it is as low of a risk as an aquarium in a carpeted living room though, just lower then it once was.
 
kwired said:
Was your aquarium in a room with wood, carpet, or other non conductive flooring? Was there grounded items nearby maybe concrete wall? If nothing grounded in the vicinity I still say your electrocution risk was much lower then if there is grounded items nearby.

We typically don't install GFCI's in living rooms, bedrooms and similar rooms. Aquariums do end up in those rooms. And the electrician that wired the house may never know. Risk still isn't all that great.

Risk probably isn't as high as it once was in bathrooms - mostly because of non metallic plumbing, I won't say it is as low of a risk as an aquarium in a carpeted living room though, just lower then it once was.
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risk is either 0 or dead
risk is small but consequences large
putiing a gfci on a tank of water with elec components that you may put your hands in makes safety and economic sense
it's up to the individual, but as professionals we should give them the info to make an informed consent

hypothetical
you wire a house
guy say I need a recept here for a fish tank, what do you do?

go to some aquarium forums
shock is not uncommon
fried fish is not uncommon

I don't care what you or others do
if I know there is going to be something like this I'm putting a gfci and tank electrode in
no brainer imo
 
Ingenieur said:
risk is either 0 or dead
risk is small but consequences large
putiing a gfci on a tank of water with elec components that you may put your hands in makes safety and economic sense
it's up to the individual, but as professionals we should give them the info to make an informed consent

hypothetical
you wire a house
guy say I need a recept here for a fish tank, what do you do?

go to some aquarium forums
shock is not uncommon
fried fish is not uncommon

I don't care what you or others do
if I know there is going to be something like this I'm putting a gfci and tank electrode in
no brainer imo
Click to expand...

Then with that approach we need to GFCI "everything".

Guy needing a recept for a fish tank - Can't recall ever being asked that. Most people just plug into what ever is most convenient - especially in their homes.

Fish getting fried in the tank? Current must flow through the fish for that to happen. If water gets raised to ungrounded conductor potential - so what? No different then a bird on a high voltage conductor. If in a conductive tank and tank is grounded - then they may be in a current path.

I'm not saying installing GFCI is a bad idea, just disagreeing with the fact you seem to think someone is certain to die if GFCI isn't used for such application.

Again aquarium in a living room or bedroom, risk is not very high.

Aquarium in a basement, outside, in a garage - risk is higher - GFCI requirements are there with or without the aquarium anyway.

Should one GFCI protect a portable humidifier or steam vaporizer? Seen many of them used in living rooms, bedrooms etc for many years - never heard of an electrocution.

If I place a glass of water on my desk do I now need GFCI's for the desk area?

GFCI isn't about water it is about increased risk of shock, well used to be as far as 210.8 goes, more recently they have been sneaking things in there with little justification on risk of shock, that gets us back to if you are going to say any risk is justified then we may as well say all electric circuits are a risk and require GFCI on everything.

Then you still get the stray voltages at marinas/docks that occasionally end up killing someone where there is a rise in voltage on the service grounded conductor which also shows up on EGC's - and a GFCI does nothing for that.
 
Ingenieur said:
I don't care what you or others do
if I know there is going to be something like this I'm putting a gfci and tank electrode in
no brainer imo
Click to expand...


Ok- I'm sorry, forgive me- but I have too.


I would never place an electrode in the tank for the sole reason that GFCIs fail and for a variety of reasons. Remember they aren't just a toroid coil with a solenoid (like some European RCDs), but multiple semiconductors. Even then you have mechanical failure or welding of the contact. In addition who tests GFCIs? Most do not or even know how to. In fact testing may not even reveal some failure mods such as a welded contact.


With a GFCI and no electrode the tank becomes live and remains live (above earth) with no current going through the fish/lobsters. Person sticks their hand in. If the current goes over 5ma from the person being well grounded the GFCIs trips, if not the person feels a tingle (or none at all) and hand comes out.

If the GFCIs fails its the same as the above minus the trip if going over 5ma.


Now if you have the electrode, a failed GFCI results in a giant electric seafood cooker.

In short the worst thing you can do is drag remote earth into an equal potential body. You would never do such with a pool.
 
mbrooke said:
Ok- I'm sorry, forgive me- but I have too.


I would never place an electrode in the tank for the sole reason that GFCIs fail and for a variety of reasons. Remember they aren't just a toroid coil with a solenoid (like some European RCDs), but multiple semiconductors. Even then you have mechanical failure or welding of the contact. In addition who tests GFCIs? Most do not or even know how to. In fact testing may not even reveal some failure mods such as a welded contact.


With a GFCI and no electrode the tank becomes live and remains live (above earth) with no current going through the fish/lobsters. Person sticks their hand in. If the current goes over 5ma from the person being well grounded the GFCIs trips, if not the person feels a tingle (or none at all) and hand comes out.

If the GFCIs fails its the same as the above minus the trip if going over 5ma.


Now if you have the electrode, a failed GFCI results in a giant electric seafood cooker.

In short the worst thing you can do is drag remote earth into an equal potential body. You would never do such with a pool.
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I was thinking same thing, why would you put an electrode in a typical fish aquarium?

Super large aquarium like you may find at a zoo is a different ball game. But I think this discussion is about one that maybe only holds a hundred gallons max.
 
kwired said:
I was thinking same thing, why would you put an electrode in a typical fish aquarium?

Super large aquarium like you may find at a zoo is a different ball game. But I think this discussion is about one that maybe only holds a hundred gallons max.
Click to expand...



The article Ingenieur linked says its to trip the GFCI, but, why would you need to trip the GFCI if current isn't going anywhere or through a person?
 
mbrooke said:
The article Ingenieur linked says its to trip the GFCI, but, why would you need to trip the GFCI if current isn't going anywhere or through a person?
Click to expand...
I didn't read his link. But I agree.

Sitting here at my desk and thinking if I would decide to put a fish aquarium on my desk Whether it be 2 gallon, 50 gallon or 100 gallon, I probably wouldn't have ever thought of installing GFCI. And even after reading this thread, I still wouldn't. I don't see where the potential is going to come from to have a shock incident. There is no exposed grounded objects anywhere nearby. If I had a temporary tool, appliance etc. in the vicinity that had an EGC and bonded frame, it just isn't all that likely I am going to stick my hands in the tank while also touching that tool, appliance. If a submersible pump in the tank has a failure, it energizes the water, but fish are like a bird on high voltage line and are at same potential as the water and don't feel a thing. If the submersible pump has an EGC or even faults through the water to the grounded conductor - that current path is between the two points of potential not across opposite ends of the tank. If you have a second item plugged in and immersed into the tank, then risks begin to increase though.

My experiences with these aquariums is minimal and I am not up on what may be common today. I don't recall pumps/aerators that get submerged being common at all though. About only thing I do recall that is submerged is heaters, though they may not even be a type where the 120 volt supply is directly submerged into the water.
 
kwired said:
I didn't read his link. But I agree.

Sitting here at my desk and thinking if I would decide to put a fish aquarium on my desk Whether it be 2 gallon, 50 gallon or 100 gallon, I probably wouldn't have ever thought of installing GFCI. And even after reading this thread, I still wouldn't. I don't see where the potential is going to come from to have a shock incident. There is no exposed grounded objects anywhere nearby. If I had a temporary tool, appliance etc. in the vicinity that had an EGC and bonded frame, it just isn't all that likely I am going to stick my hands in the tank while also touching that tool, appliance. If a submersible pump in the tank has a failure, it energizes the water, but fish are like a bird on high voltage line and are at same potential as the water and don't feel a thing. If the submersible pump has an EGC or even faults through the water to the grounded conductor - that current path is between the two points of potential not across opposite ends of the tank. If you have a second item plugged in and immersed into the tank, then risks begin to increase though.

My experiences with these aquariums is minimal and I am not up on what may be common today. I don't recall pumps/aerators that get submerged being common at all though. About only thing I do recall that is submerged is heaters, though they may not even be a type where the 120 volt supply is directly submerged into the water.
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I fully agree and well said :)

In terms of heaters they have these, it is possible to energize the water if the glass cracks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkTwdtySxOc

One getting dismantled:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnAI0_S-lUY
 
it is not there to trip the gfci
it is there to provide a fault path for a fault, gfci or mccb
otherwise the water would rise to 120 unitl someone reached in and provided a ground
path
isn't the same required in a swimming pool?
 
kwired said:
Then with that approach we need to GFCI "everything".

Guy needing a recept for a fish tank - Can't recall ever being asked that. Most people just plug into what ever is most convenient - especially in their homes.

Fish getting fried in the tank? Current must flow through the fish for that to happen. If water gets raised to ungrounded conductor potential - so what? No different then a bird on a high voltage conductor. If in a conductive tank and tank is grounded - then they may be in a current path.

I'm not saying installing GFCI is a bad idea, just disagreeing with the fact you seem to think someone is certain to die if GFCI isn't used for such application.

Again aquarium in a living room or bedroom, risk is not very high.

Aquarium in a basement, outside, in a garage - risk is higher - GFCI requirements are there with or without the aquarium anyway.

Should one GFCI protect a portable humidifier or steam vaporizer? Seen many of them used in living rooms, bedrooms etc for many years - never heard of an electrocution.

If I place a glass of water on my desk do I now need GFCI's for the desk area?

GFCI isn't about water it is about increased risk of shock, well used to be as far as 210.8 goes, more recently they have been sneaking things in there with little justification on risk of shock, that gets us back to if you are going to say any risk is justified then we may as well say all electric circuits are a risk and require GFCI on everything.

Then you still get the stray voltages at marinas/docks that occasionally end up killing someone where there is a rise in voltage on the service grounded conductor which also shows up on EGC's - and a GFCI does nothing for that.
Click to expand...


no we don't
only where there is increased likelyhood of water causing a person to be the gf path
bathrooms
around kitchen sinks
extrrior, ie rain, wet ground
garage, wet floors, rain/snow

do what you like, can I make it any clearer? you got it all figured out
I will design for them

shere did I say death as a certainty? re fish tank and gfci
other than people HAVE been killed
$10 to eliminate/minimize the risk, a six pack, part of a movie ticket, a couple of starbucks

do as you please
but stop wasting mine and your time trying to convince me it is not necessary
I think it is based on my professional opinionnas an ee pe and shock
safety expert
 
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  • what do most of these locations have in common?
    water, or likely exposure to

    547.5(G) Agricultural Buildings (rain, hosedown)
    525.23 Carnivals, Circuses, and Fairs (rain)
    511.12 Commercial Garages (washing, hosedown)
    210.8(A) Dwelling Units (bath, kitchen, etc)
    424.44(G) Electric Space Heating Cables
    620.23, 620.85 Elevators and Escalators (sumps, ie, water)
    680.51(A), 680.56(A), 680.57 Fountains
    517.20(A) Healthcare Facilities (bathing)
    680.71 Hydromassage Bathtubs
    555.19 Marinas and Boatyards
    680.43, 680.44 Spas and Hot Tubs
    680.22(A), 680.23, 680.27 Swimming Pools, Permanent
    680.32 Swimming Pools, Storable
    680.62 Therapeutic Tubs
 
Ingenieur said:
it is not there to trip the gfci
Click to expand...

But thats the intent behind a tank electrode.


it is there to provide a fault path for a fault, gfci or mccb
Click to expand...

In most cases it will not trip an MCCB- certainly not for fresh water.


otherwise the water would rise to 120 unitl someone reached in and provided a ground
path
Click to expand...

Yes- and if a GFCI existed, and the current went over 5ma through the person, it would trip.


isn't the same required in a swimming pool?
Click to expand...

You mean the bonding? Its there for equal potential in order to protect people.





Ingenieur said:
  • what do most of these locations have in common?
    water, or likely exposure to

    547.5(G) Agricultural Buildings (rain, hosedown)
    525.23 Carnivals, Circuses, and Fairs (rain)
    511.12 Commercial Garages (washing, hosedown)
    210.8(A) Dwelling Units (bath, kitchen, etc)
    424.44(G) Electric Space Heating Cables
    620.23, 620.85 Elevators and Escalators (sumps, ie, water)
    680.51(A), 680.56(A), 680.57 Fountains
    517.20(A) Healthcare Facilities (bathing)
    680.71 Hydromassage Bathtubs
    555.19 Marinas and Boatyards
    680.43, 680.44 Spas and Hot Tubs
    680.22(A), 680.23, 680.27 Swimming Pools, Permanent
    680.32 Swimming Pools, Storable
    680.62 Therapeutic Tubs
Click to expand...

And why doesn't a 3 phase hard wired pool motor require a GFCI?

I am going to say that you don't know the full reasoning behind GFCIs. Its not water alone, but rather that water, dirt, and concrete lowers the impedance of the human body substantially. A missing EGC in those scenarios could actually be lethal. As could direct contact.
 
mbrooke said:
But thats the intent behind a tank electrode.

In most cases it will not trip an MCCB- certainly not for fresh water.

Yes- and if a GFCI existed, and the current went over 5ma through the person, it would trip.

You mean the bonding? Its there for equal potential in order to protect people.

And why doesn't a 3 phase hard wired pool motor require a GFCI?

I am going to say that you don't know the full reasoning behind GFCIs. Its not water alone, but rather that water, dirt, and concrete lowers the impedance of the human body substantially. A missing EGC in those scenarios could actually be lethal. As could direct contact.
Click to expand...

it is there to trip ANY device, not only a gfci

in most cases it will, that is why it is there
R = p x L/A

???? restating the obvious

it is there for several
one is to trip the protection
Pool Water. Where none of the bonded parts is in direct connection with the pool water, the pool water shall be in direct contact withan approved corrosion-resistant conductive surface that exposes not less than 5800 mm2 (9 in.2) of surface area to the pool water at all times. The conductive surface shall be located where it is not exposed to physical damage or dislodgement during usual pool activities, and it shall be bonded in accordance with 680.26(B).

it does

I am going to say you are a danger to others
you should not be in this line of work .,. seriously
everyone one of those code sections relate to water/moisture
you have 0 understanding of this subject yet you yammer, pontificare and bloviate as if you have mastery, it boggles the mind lol

concrete does not lower body Z, it lowrrs the fault rtn path

really? lol
 
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