Lowe's guy wouldn't sell a FPE to a customer

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If I worked in a gun store and some near sighted, non-coordinated,paranoid shaky guy with a temper came in and asked me what gun would be best to defend himself from his neighbors, I would talk to him about responsibility and show him our Remington 870's w/ tactical furniture. If that same guy came in and said his neighbors were bothering him and wanted to know how to take out the highest number of them with the least amount of effort I would talk to him about responsibility and ask him to leave the store.

I think of it as discretion.
 
A big box salesman exercises discretion and refuses to open the glass case to sell a nitwit customer a breaker. A breaker, that in this case was secured due to price, but would other wise be available in another brand or at another store. Obviously, the customer must have said something to the management, as the manager quizzes the salesman about the situation. Interestingly, the manager agrees with the salesman for his decision not to sell the breaker to the nitwit.

So in lays the paradox. I agree that in this instance, that the salesman was correct for not aiding and abetting the nitwit in his erroneous pursuit of a sure fire (pardon the pun) attempt at overloading improper wiring techniques.

However, I disagree with the precedent brought forth in this case, as I would not want any salesperson to prohibit any transaction that I would desire, based solely upon the merits of his understanding of the methods and material detailed in a short and semi formal conversation. If I asked for a 100 amp FPE to connect to #12s, what does it matter to him? (And what difference does it make anyway, seeing that it's a FPE? :grin: )

So, Mr. salesman, you did the right thing (IMO) this time. But don't get in my way when I want to spend my money at your store. I have my rights, you know?
 
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I don't see it as a precedent. I see it as doing the right thing, at the right time, in the right situation.

How your lawyer would choose to view it is another matter entirely. (Lawyers are great at discourse regarding the pros and cons of ethical standards but not so great at applying them).
 
ultramegabob said:
I dont think it is the job of a supply house worker to police what people are buying or what they do with it once they purchase it.......
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It is one thing to provide technical assistance including advice aimed at discouraging a customer from purchasing a certain circuit breaker, but the actual purchase should be left up to the customer.

If the customer's home or a client of such a customer's home was to burn from an improperly installed circuit breaker, the law will take into account the person's knowledge, experience and perceptions when the time comes to determine if the "contractor" has acted reasonably. Conduct is judged by considering actual knowledge of a person.

Reasonable, ordinary people know icy roads are slippery, downed overhead conductors are dangerous, alcohol impairs driving abilities, children may run into the streets while playing, but a person who undertakes an activity such as installing a circuit breaker is ordinarily considered to have the special skills and common knowledge to do so.

If special skills, education and training are involved, the bar gets raised a little. Often licensing is involved. Anyone who performs these special skills, whether qualified or not qualified, will be held to the standards of conduct of those that are considered professional. The "trunkslammer" is held to the same standard of conduct of persons who are reasonably experienced.

I would rather have my rights in place and be able to purchase anything that is for sale in an electrical supply house than to be singled out and judged "incompetent" by a sales clerk concerned of my apparent lack of understanding of wiring methods.
 
wbalsam1 said:
It is one thing to provide technical assistance including advice aimed at discouraging a customer from purchasing a certain circuit breaker, but the actual purchase should be left up to the customer.
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Yes and the decision not to sell to this customer was completley arbitrary. There is no store policy in place not to sell to the unqualified. This one customer was singled out for refusal of service based on the opinion of the store clerk. If they question all customers or had a store policy for the refusal of service it would be different.

When the next guy comes in and wants some #14 gauge wire are they going to question his breaker size? I'm willing to bet that I can go in there and get #14 and a bunch of 20 Amp breakers there is nothing they can do about it. What about all those 30 Amp. single pole breakers they have in stock, just what are people doing with those? I have used maybe two in the last 20 years ( 120v. 30 Amp. Instant hot water heaters, commercial ). I don't think I have ever used a 30 amp single pole breaker for anything residential.
 
growler said:
Yes and the decision not to sell to this customer was completley arbitrary. There is no store policy in place not to sell to the unqualified. This one customer was singled out for refusal of service based on the opinion of the store clerk. If they question all customers or had a store policy for the refusal of service it would be different.

When the next guy comes in and wants some #14 gauge wire are they going to question his breaker size? I'm willing to bet that I can go in there and get #14 and a bunch of 20 Amp breakers there is nothing they can do about it. What about all those 30 Amp. single pole breakers they have in stock, just what are people doing with those? I have used maybe two in the last 20 years ( 120v. 30 Amp. Instant hot water heaters, commercial ). I don't think I have ever used a 30 amp single pole breaker for anything residential.
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I agree there. I've never used a single pole 30 amp breaker I don't think ever and I've often wondered why they have so many of them in stock (every time I reach for a 2 pole 30 amp I pull out a single pole one. :)
 
I don't think anyone should be forced to sell anything to anyone they don't want to. If someone was to tell me they have a right to buy something I have for sale I think I should have the same right to tell them to take a hike. If I don't want to deal with someone for any reason I don't feel I should have to.
 
growler said:
Sorry folks I forgot about that. I would still guess that most that are purchased are not used for the intended purpose. They should keep those under lock and key and make sure you actually own an RV before you can purchase one. Just joking.:D
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The one I've used in residential was a for a central vac system, per manufacturer's instructions. (Motor came with a 120v, 30a twistlock)
 
What about a bartender who has someone in front of him that has fallen off the bar stool three times and is slurring about how rough a drive home it is going to be and then orders another drink? It is legal to purchase a drink but don't you think the bartender should have the discretion to cut that person off?
 
ishium 80439 said:
What about a bartender who has someone in front of him that has fallen off the bar stool three times and is slurring about how rough a drive home it is going to be and then orders another drink? It is legal to purchase a drink but don't you think the bartender should have the discretion to cut that person off?
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There's dram shop laws concerning that situation.

Suppose I walk into a gun store and ask to buy some bullets. As the clerk gets them, I tell him I'm going to use them to kill someone.
 
ishium 80439 said:
What about a bartender who has someone in front of him that has fallen off the bar stool three times and is slurring about how rough a drive home it is going to be and then orders another drink? It is legal to purchase a drink but don't you think the bartender should have the discretion to cut that person off?
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Selling a breaker is not at all the same as selling guns (your earlier post) or alcohol.

Guns and alcohol have very different rules for sale then breakers.
 
Reminds me of a service call for a tripping breaker (after I did a service upgrade) where the homeowner insisted, "There's not enough amps in that socket".

That was probably one of the circuits that had a 30 amp fuse before the upgrade.
 
mdshunk said:
There were some old cooktops and wall ovens that were 120V, 30A too.
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I have seen that picture of "Charles Manson" you use on another forum so I'm not going to sell you a breaker anyway. :D

That's what it could come down to if we start letting clerks decide who to sell to. :confused:
 
iwire said:
Selling a breaker is not at all the same as selling guns (your earlier post) or alcohol.

Guns and alcohol have very different rules for sale then breakers.
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I do understand that, I was just trying to draw a parallel. The OP involved not only a direct code violation but a situation that was absolutely dangerous and absolutely could have caused a situation that could have harmed innocent people.

I do understand the arguement that if it is for sale than I should be able to buy it and how the refusal to do so can be conceived as an abridgement of rights as a consumer. But the beauty of our capitalist system is that this HO can easily find the same product elsewhere and continue on his ill-advised repair. The employee did not call around to every other supply house in the county and make sure that the HO could not buy the product anywhere, he just wanted to make sure his hands were clean.

Again I think it is using discretion which IMO is a good thing. If I am refused the purchase of something, let's say a set of brake pads, because the clerk thinks I don't have the skill to employ them properly, I'll think that guy is a jerk and just go somewhere else and purchase them.

Again I am sensitive to people trying stamp out rights (which I don't think this was a case of because the same product was available elsewhere), but in this case where the product was absolutely going to be installed in a way that would very likely caused harm I feel that the employee made the right call.

There are cases of pharmacists not filling certain scripts because they don't agree with them. While I may not agree with their judgement call I feel that it is their right to refuse service as long as the same product is available locally.
 
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