Moonlighting

[celtic]

dnk,

i wouldn't give you the time of day if you asked, not because i don't know it, but because i don't like you.

You should try being honest emahler...

 

[satcom]

Overkill,

Welcome, and thank you for posting, i hope you don't take my post as an attack, some of the topics can get heated up, but we try to keep them on topic, i just must be reaching my stress point.

Thank you,

LK

 

[emahler]

You should try being honest emahler...

i am honest...unfortunately, when I'm really honest, i get a pm from Bob yelling at me

 

[emahler]

Overkill,

Welcome, and thank you for posting, i hope you don't take my post as an attack, some of the topics can get heated up, but we try to keep them on topic, i just must be reaching my stress point.

Thank you,

LK

Satcom, your point was understood. The hard part about getting facts and statistics is that moonlighting (in the definition of this thread) is really untraceable and unaccountable. If a person moonlights for cash, there is no way to track it. If a potential customer doesn't file a permit for the work, there is no way to record that anything was done.

it's truly unprovable. But, on the flip side, after how many years of speculation, they just video taped a live 24' giant squid. There was never any real "proof" that they existed until now. Just speculation.

 

[petersonra]

Bob, You have stated before that you work for an automation contractor. Are you now running the company? I haven't seen many controls contractors working out of the trucks of cars, please explain.

I did not mean to say I owned the company, only that the business I work is completely "legit", as someone put it earlier.

You must not be looking very closely if you don't see controls contractors working out of the trunk of their cars, because they are everywhere. Perhaps you do not see them because you work on larger projects where they often sub-contract to larger companies.

There is virtually no barrier to entry in the control panel business. People set up shop in their garages or in pole barns. Don't even need a concrete floor. Dirt works fine. And they can do very fine work. And it is near impossible for us to compete with that.

 

[mdshunk]

Satcom, your point was understood. The hard part about getting facts and statistics is that moonlighting (in the definition of this thread) is really untraceable and unaccountable.

Exactly right, and furthermore, it has always existed. While the total quantity of moonlighters may wax and wain in some sort natural cycle, they always have existed. While they may hurt our industry, it doesn't matter. The "hurt" (if indeed harm is even being done) has always existed, yet the industry thrives. I struggle to not worry so much about what other people do, and worry more about myself.

If a moonlighter is working for an employer and doing moonlight work with little real overhead, who's smarter than who in that scenario? Many people are under the mistaken impression that a moonlighter will do substandard work or will not provide warranty work. While that may be true to some extent, why does that matter to a legitimate contractor? Do you suppose that people who have had a bad experience with a moonlighter will suddenly resent the electrical industry and quit using electricity? No, exactly the opposite will happen. People who have been 'burned' by a moonlighter by some means will be more than happy to pay a legitimate contractor whatever he wants for a job well done.

Quit worrying about moonlighters. They're serving a completely different demographic of people. They primarily service a group of cheapskates who you really don't want among your customers. They also service a group of folks who wouldn't hire an electrician anyhow, and who only hack things together themselves or hire a moonlighter on the cheap.

Don't sweat the small stuff.

 

[Overkill]

No offence taken Satcom, thanks for the welcome.

The reason I question such claims is partly because a company I worked for. Every year right before raise time, like clockwork, we would get an e-mail from the CEO claiming that the company was doing terrible, projections are down, (fill in the blank) is hurting business, etc. etc. Then come March, we get an e-mail stating record profits!!! This was a private company, so all the numbers and data were secret.

In my mind, claims like this are considered propaganda untill proven true. Lack of profits can be blamed on moonlighters, the government, witchcraft, etc.

 

[satcom]

"is really untraceable and unaccountable."

I agree, you would not be able to get hard data industry wide. What we find is a large percentage of our service calls, as MD noted, is where they finally call a contractor, and when we get there, we do document the non complient work, so we do have our own data, and Pic's, which i would be more then happy to share, not a giant squid, but nasty workmanship, and violations from side work.

A contractor working day to day residential jobs, will have a better understanding of impact this has on the industry, than someone not directly involved with it.

It is not that they are taking work form us, that is the issue, it is the mess they leave behind, that reflects on our industry as a whole.

 

[growler]

There is virtually no barrier to entry in the control panel business. People set up shop in their garages or in pole barns. Don't even need a concrete floor. Dirt works fine. And they can do very fine work. And it is near impossible for us to compete with that.

Sorry Bob, I will admit that I didn't know that. Live and learn I guess. I wired a few panels in my younger years but that was for larger companies ( nice facilties ). For the panels that I worked on the cost alone would have been a prohibiting factor. You are right for the small ones it wouldn't take much to set up shop.

You stated that it's near impossible to compete. I believe you. You are not protected by law. We are. Can you really blame us if we wish to take advantage of this protection. If a license was required to build panels and you found out that the competition was working illegally, wouldn't you do what any good business person does and take advantage of the legal protection.

Some of America's biggest wars have been fought to destroy economic competition. Anyone that thinks wars are fought over ideas is crazy.
It's all about money.

 

[infinity]

Quit worrying about moonlighters. They're serving a completely different demographic of people. They primarily service a group of cheapskates who you really don't want among your customers. They also service a group of folks who wouldn't hire an electrician anyhow, and who only hack things together themselves or hire a moonlighter on the cheap.

Don't sweat the small stuff.

I agree. Back in the day 20 years ago when I actually did some side work to supplement my tiny helper pay, I got all of the jobs that the local EC's wouldn't want in the first place. In this geographic area you can open the phone book and call around and you'll almost never get an EC to come over and install a few high hats or hang a ceiling fan.

 

[growler]

I agree. In this geographic area you can open the phone book and call around and you'll almost never get an EC to come over and install a few high hats or hang a ceiling fan.

There are no Service Contractors in your geographic area? My phone book has about forty of them. Many of them have a whole fleet of vans and will come out day or night ( it won't be cheap ). They will even flip a breaker for you, for a price.

 

[infinity]

There are no Service Contractors in your geographic area? My phone book has about forty of them. Many of them have a whole fleet of vans and will come out day or night ( it won't be cheap ). They will even flip a breaker for you, for a price.

All I know is that back in the day people would tell me that EC's wouldn't even return their phone calls for a small job involving a few highhats or a ceiling fan.

 

[growler]

All I know is that back in the day people would tell me that EC's wouldn't even return their phone calls for a small job involving a few highhats or a ceiling fan.

You are right, 20 years ago it could have been hard to find a contractor to do small jobs.
That all changed around 1990 when a large market share was noticed and the gap filled.
( The service contractor was born and since then they have been breeding like rabbits )

I still have people telling me they can't get an electrician. I tell them what the magic word is. "Money".

People call and ask if you do small jobs. " Yes, It's called a service all". When you explain the rates then they choke and look for a handeyman.

I have even had customers ask me if I could send someone after hours ( off the books ).

 

[ceknight]

it's truly unprovable.

Whether or not it's unprovable depends on the hypothesis. If the hypothesis is that "moonlighting and side work are killing the industry", you can try to work backwards from industry statistics on some scale (probably local).

If, for instance, the number of qualified electrical businesses in an area is decreasing, you have something to start with. Then you start looking for reasons that those companies are going out of business. If those reasons aren't correlating with other economic factors (local economy isn't tanking, companies aren't growing and taking over some of those defunct businesses, etc), then you can at least start mounting an argument for the hypothesis. How good that argument will be depends on how much other stuff you can rule out.

If, however, business is better than ever and you're not losing electrical contractors locally due to lack of work, then you're going to have a hard time making a case for that hypothesis.

That's the strategy, anyway.

 

[stickboy1375]

If I can make my paycheck in a weekend, all I can say is why woulden't I do it... The cost of living is incredible, I have a family to support, I will do it anyway I can... Most times I have the HO pull the permit... I know this does not make it right but at least it gets inspected... best I can do...

 

[emahler]

If I can make my paycheck in a weekend, all I can say is why woulden't I do it... The cost of living is incredible, I have a family to support, I will do it anyway I can... Most times I have the HO pull the permit... I know this does not make it right but at least it gets inspected... best I can do...

stickboy, but what if your employer could afford to pay you twice what you make now? so that you only had to work forty, and could actually spend time with that family that you have to support?

 

[stickboy1375]

yeh i'm sure thats top of his agenda... pay me twice the hourly rate when he can just pay me what he pays me now... I make decent money, don't get me wrong, the problem is the cost of living... nothing is going to change this... the other problem is the world revolves around one thing... $$$

 

[qcroanoke]

If I can make my paycheck in a weekend, all I can say is why woulden't I do it... The cost of living is incredible, I have a family to support, I will do it anyway I can... Most times I have the HO pull the permit... I know this does not make it right but at least it gets inspected... best I can do...
__________________

I agree.
I'm a licensed Master Electrician and when I work on the side it's done according to code.
A previous post talked about most EC's wouldn't even return phone calls
about small jobs.That happens a lot here. When people call me and need or want something done usually it's a really small job. Why shouldn't I go do them and my family a favor? Am I taking food off your table? I don't think so.
I'm sorry if y'all think that. But I'll tell ya what, If it wasn't for side work my kids would have went without a lot of things. And I will not appoligize for taking care of my wife and kids.

 

[emahler]

For guys who are licensed, bonded and insured and do work outside of your employers time and/or field, one simple question...

Why not just go into business for yourselves?

 

[romexking]

"A previous post talked about most EC's wouldn't even return phone calls
about small jobs.That happens a lot here. When people call me and need or want something done usually it's a really small job. Why shouldn't I go do them and my family a favor? Am I taking food off your table? I don't think so."

If an EC can perform work profitably they most certainly would return each and every phone call, but the problem lies where the general public has preconcieved amount that they think a job will cost, and the only person that can do it at that cost is someone on the side. If no one did side work, (execpt for relatives) the public would have no choice but to use a licensed contractor using the (hopefully) correct pricing structure that allow him/her to make a profit.

For my company, there is no small job. We return every call..even if it is just a receptacle replacement. You never know what that call may turn into.