Moonlighting

[stickboy1375]

If an EC can perform work profitably they most certainly would return each and every phone call, but the problem lies where the general public has preconcieved amount that they think a job will cost, and the only person that can do it at that cost is someone on the side. If no one did side work, (execpt for relatives) the public would have no choice but to use a licensed contractor using the (hopefully) correct pricing structure that allow him/her to make a profit.

For my company, there is no small job. We return every call..even if it is just a receptacle replacement. You never know what that call may turn into.[/QUOTE]

Now thats wishfull thinking, and if we ALL didnt buy gas maybe BIG oil would lower prices.... HAHAHAHAHA

 

[mdshunk]

Why not just go into business for yourselves?

There's many reasons for that. Not having the nerve, or unwilling to take on the additional responsibilities that operating a full-time business entails are the biggest among them. I am 1000% certain that there are many full-time employed electricians who also do side work that are making more than their employer (sole proprietor) is. Who's smarter than who there? Guys who do side work legally (licenses, permits, insurance) are, in fact, operating a part-time business. It's the American way, and my hat is off to them.

 

[satcom]

Let see if i have this right, i pay the full fright, and obay all the laws, my overhead in a full time operation, is fixed, where someone without all the overhead, and daily expenses, does a job on a weekend, clears more money then i can legally, and uses his family as an excuse, what my family dosent count, i guess hiding in a basement on a weekend. beats running around with a ski mask. I have had to to do many things, to support my family over the years, but i never resorted to anything illegal.

 

[emahler]

Guys who do side work legally (licenses, permits, insurance) are, in fact, operating a part-time business. It's the American way, and my hat is off to them.

I agree. But the key word being legal.

That being said, I wouldn't hire, nor keep employed, someone who was running their own electrical business on the side, legally or not.

See, the argument being placed by guys who moonlight is...gotta take care of my family.

Well, I gotta take care of mine to. If I bust my hump to keep you working and pay your benes, I don't want to have to worry that you might be sandbagging me with customers.

 

[mdshunk]

I have had to to do many things, to support my family over the years, but i never resorted to anything illegal.

You have the very mistaken impression that all moonlighters are lawbreakers. This may be true for many, perhaps even most, but certainly not all. Quite often, it's the step before venturing out on one's own.

On a related note, why should it ever be illegal for a man to ply his trade in the first place?

 

[stickboy1375]

Let see if i have this right, i pay the full fright, and obay all the laws, my overhead in a full time operation, is fixed, where someone without all the overhead, and daily expenses, does a job on a weekend, clears more money then i can legally, and uses his family as an excuse, what my family dosent count, i guess hiding in a basement on a weekend. beats running around with a ski mask. I have had to to do many things, to support my family over the years, but i never resorted to anything illegal.

I don't think my family is an excuse, If I work for you, are you really going to pay me what the cost of living is? Of course not, you would loose money on me..... face it, its just the way it is... But hey if you have a job opening, I will gladly hop on board if it makes you feel any better that i'm not out on weekends....

 

[mdshunk]

I don't want to have to worry that you might be sandbagging me with customers.

Yes, indeed. I'd fire a guy in a heartbeat if he was taking my customers. If he cultivates his own customers, that's fine with me. Like I've said many times, there's plenty of work to go around. Everyone uses electricity. In that regard, everyone is a potential customer. I want a certain type of customer only. Nice people who also pay their bills. I'll gladly let a moonlighter work for the rest of the population... grumpy people and slow payers.

 

[emahler]

satcom, sorry didn't see your post.

but obviously i agree with you

 

[growler]

I am 1000% certain that there are many full-time employed electricians who also do side work that are making more than their employer (sole proprietor) is. Who's smarter than who there?.

I'm at least 100% sure you are right. But what is the real advantage to doing side work? It's an attempt to avoid taxes. Cash money under the table and it's part of the Black Market Ecomony.

People that hire illegal workers use the same justification, it's profitable.

 

[emahler]

I don't think my family is an excuse, If I work for you, are you really going to pay me what the cost of living is? Of course not, you would loose money on me..... face it, its just the way it is...

see that's where the disconnect is....i'll pay you $100/hr in the pocket, if i could get people to pay me enough to cover it. but when prices are kept artificially low, for various reasons, we all suffer

 

[stickboy1375]

If I bust my hump to keep you working and pay your benes, I don't want to have to worry that you might be sandbagging me with customers.

Not directing this directly towards you, but I find all my own work, or should I say it finds me, and I never steal from my boss either, I just need the money to make ends meet.. bottom line.

 

[mdshunk]

but when prices are kept artificially low, for various reasons, we all suffer

Can you describe what forces you feel are keeping your prices low? Low prices, to me, translate into lack of guts (to ask for more) or lack of salesmanship (to explain why that's the price).

 

[aline]

I had a job yesterday to hang some ceiling fans and light fixtures.
This is a nice home worth about 500k and he just had the basement finished with a full kitchen. The only thing left to be done was to hang the fans and install the lights. He said another electrician installed the wiring and all the receptacles but he couldn't get him back to finish the rest.

As I was hanging the fixtures everything appeared to be professionally done. Then I realized that the previous electrician had it all wired so that the neutrals were being switched instead of the hots. I also realized that there wasn't any wiring for smoke detectors.

Looking at the kitchen I found one 15 amp circuit feeding the entire kitchen. There were GFCI receptacles installed at every outlet for a total of five. These were all in series so if you tripped the last one on the circuit you had to reset all five in the correct order to get them working again.

I checked the bathroom and found a 2gang box with two GFCIs installed in it. Tripped the GFCI's and then couldn't get them to reset. The homeowner tells me he has to go out to the garage and reset the GFCI to get them to work. After resetting the GFCI in the garage they still didn't work. I found two more GFCIs in the basement laundry room and reset them. The bathroom GFCIs still wouldn't reset. Finally I found another GFCI behind some sheetrock in the utility room. Reset it and I was able to get the GFCIs in the bathroom to work.

He had six GFCI receptacles wired in series so if you tripped the last one in the bathroom you had to first reset the one in the garage then reset the two in the laundry room then reset the one in utility room and then reset the two in the bathroom. The garage, laundry room, utility room and bathroom were all on the same 15 amp circuit.

Whomever wired this put GFCI receptacles at every location and wired them all in series. My first thought was this couldn't have been done by an electrician but the workmanship was good. He even did a nice job installing a sub panel for the basement. Then I realized that the guy was probably a green apprentice, or commercial or industrial electrician who knew nothing about residential wiring out and was moonlighting wiring residential basements.

The homeowner said the guy was licenesed.
I asked the homeowner if he had the wiring inspected and he said he didn't and that he didn't pull a permit either. He said he didn't like the fees the city wanted to charge him.

You should have seen the look on his face when I told him about all these problems and that sheetrock would have to come down if he wanted smoke detectors installed and dedicated 20 amp circuits ran to the kitchen, laundry room and bathroom.

The homeowner really got a great deal on this wiring job. Saved himself a lot of money by not pulling the permit and getting it inspected too.

Also all the can lights were on one 30amp circuit and there were no AFCI breakers for the bedrooms.

I also was on a job where the homeowner said his uncle did the service upgrade on the home. This was an old home with just a few circuits and an unfinished basement. His uncle was a licensed electrician working in an industrial plant.

The outside service was a very nice job with a new 200amp meter main installed but when I looked at the panel inside he had installed a small 6-12 circuit panel and it was full of tandem breakers with no spare slots. There was no room to add any circuits for finishing the basement or to add circuits for the existing kitchen that was sharing circuits with the rest of the house.

I told the homeowner his uncle did a nice job on the outside service but should have put a much larger panel in.

If guys are going to moonlight in a area outside of their usual work they should at least learn how to do it properly.

On second thought these guys are good for business.

 

[stickboy1375]

see that's where the disconnect is....i'll pay you $100/hr in the pocket, if i could get people to pay me enough to cover it. but when prices are kept artificially low, for various reasons, we all suffer

Thats unrealistic, people only make so much money, Do you really think someone would pay you $160.00 an hour for me to work at their house?

 

[mdshunk]

Thats unrealistic, people only make so much money, you can only charge so much... You can't get what people don't have...

Now that brings a novel idea to my mind. "Ma'am, my hourly rate is based on you and your husband's IRS 1040 form from last year. Can I see that, please?"

 

[emahler]

I just need the money to make ends meet.. bottom line.

not to sound harsh, but go work for a different company.

the big picture is this, if i can't charge more, i can't pay more. simple as that.

 

[stickboy1375]

not to sound harsh, but go work for a different company.

the big picture is this, if i can't charge more, i can't pay more. simple as that.

I would never make what I make now with sidework, working for someone... whats the highest paid employee you have? and I'll tell you if your being harsh or not...

 

[stickboy1375]

not to sound harsh, but go work for a different company.

the big picture is this, if i can't charge more, i can't pay more. simple as that.

So is there some magical force keeping you from charging more? or is it basic economics... people will only pay you so much... has nothing to do with me moonlighting either, if you only make so much, then I only make so much, and that number my friend does not MEET the cost of living...

 

[emahler]

Can you describe what forces you feel are keeping your prices low? Low prices, to me, translate into lack of guts (to ask for more) or lack of salesmanship (to explain why that's the price).

marc,

not trying to be mean, but do you just type responses to so many boards that you don't even remember them?

We've gone through this before
We bill at about $250/billable on residential, works out to around $125-140/hr for a tech and a truck.

We routinely do service changes at $3000 or better. Do you remember that thread?

As for forces keeping the market artificially low:

Moonlighters working for $250/day cash
Contractors that don't even do residential work quoting prices of $50/hr to residential customers

That's 2, there are more, but you get the picture.

Let me put it this way, we are busy, we have everyone working full time. But, does that mean I should look the other way while guys bypass the laws that we abide by and perform work illegally?

Then do away with licenses, inspections, etc and let us all work without the annoying rules and regulations that we follow.

 

[emahler]

I would never make what I make now with sidework, working for someone... whats the highest paid employee you have? and I'll tell you if your being harsh or not...

higest paid, not including myself, is about $80k +full benefits. No BS.

He hustles.

Most of the residential techs we have and have had are in the $50-$55k +benes. But they all work on a base pay +commission. So they get what they earn.