Moonlighting
- Thread starter emahler
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romexking
Senior Member
- Location
- Marriottsville, Maryland
stickboy,
it seems that you have a negative view of owners in general. Is sounds as if you think you deserve something special. Let's just say for a moment that all owners make $80k a year in salary. Does that sound like it is too much to you? If we ran our businesses differently, and could only make $40k a year, how much do you think you would be making then? Do you really understand the risks involved in owning a business? For every extra piece of material used on a project, where do you think the money comes from? I'll tell you...right from the owner's wallet. Every time someone makes a mistake and work has to be redone...money from our wallets, everytime a vehicle is damaged in a accident...money from our wallets; everytime material is taken home in your shirt pocket...money from our wallets; everytime a tool or ladder is left out and lost...money from our wallets. Just because the "company" pays for it doesn't mean the money grows on trees.
My point is very simple, the more money that you make you employer, the more money he/she has to spend on your pay. I can't believe that all of the contractors in your area are conspiring to keep wages low. Don't blame the contractor for your low wages, blame yourself for accepting them. In order to make the best wages, you must be the best employee. Educate yourself in the electrical field, project management, business management, and sales. Don't expect more money to be just given to you because another year has passed, make youreself more valuable to your employer. Take the initiative to better yourself technically and personally, those around you will thank you for it.
Find a contractor that treats you fairly, and give 110% to make them the most money you can. That means forwarding all sales leads to the sales manager or owner. This will enable the contractor to pay for all of those things that employees expect (and most deserve), like health insurance and holiday and vacation time.
it seems that you have a negative view of owners in general. Is sounds as if you think you deserve something special. Let's just say for a moment that all owners make $80k a year in salary. Does that sound like it is too much to you? If we ran our businesses differently, and could only make $40k a year, how much do you think you would be making then? Do you really understand the risks involved in owning a business? For every extra piece of material used on a project, where do you think the money comes from? I'll tell you...right from the owner's wallet. Every time someone makes a mistake and work has to be redone...money from our wallets, everytime a vehicle is damaged in a accident...money from our wallets; everytime material is taken home in your shirt pocket...money from our wallets; everytime a tool or ladder is left out and lost...money from our wallets. Just because the "company" pays for it doesn't mean the money grows on trees.
My point is very simple, the more money that you make you employer, the more money he/she has to spend on your pay. I can't believe that all of the contractors in your area are conspiring to keep wages low. Don't blame the contractor for your low wages, blame yourself for accepting them. In order to make the best wages, you must be the best employee. Educate yourself in the electrical field, project management, business management, and sales. Don't expect more money to be just given to you because another year has passed, make youreself more valuable to your employer. Take the initiative to better yourself technically and personally, those around you will thank you for it.
Find a contractor that treats you fairly, and give 110% to make them the most money you can. That means forwarding all sales leads to the sales manager or owner. This will enable the contractor to pay for all of those things that employees expect (and most deserve), like health insurance and holiday and vacation time.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
emahler said:
The answer is that have gone into business for themselves.
romexking
Senior Member
- Location
- Marriottsville, Maryland
stick(up)boy,
If you can make a weeks pay in a weekend, why don't you just work 4 days a week for yourself, and unburden the poor sap that you call your boss? That sounds like a win-win situation for both parties. You make the same amount of money in half the time. How could this have any down side? If you have any common sense, you would not hesitate to do this starting tomorrow.
If you can make a weeks pay in a weekend, why don't you just work 4 days a week for yourself, and unburden the poor sap that you call your boss? That sounds like a win-win situation for both parties. You make the same amount of money in half the time. How could this have any down side? If you have any common sense, you would not hesitate to do this starting tomorrow.
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
romexking said:
Benefits for one, and 2nd, I don't have a negative view on owners, not sure where you got that idea from, your missing the point, I double my income by doing sidework, if you can't handle that then too bad... not my problem, the thread is moonlighting, thats what I do... what do you pay your top dog, I bet he'd have the same opinion has mine... why don't you go and ask him... I make around 65k with my boss now, but when you start thinking about retirement, college, future weddings, and god knows what else, you can never make enough money...
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stickboy, please make one thing clear, while I understand why you do it, and while I'm frustrated that the industry kind of forces you to do it,
i can not condone the fact that you do it illegally, and quite frankly your comment about benefits takes away any sympathy I may have had for you.
But that's all I will say about it. i do appreciate your input, not too many guys will admit to moonlighting in a forum full of contractors.
but if moonlighting illegally is seen as ok, then let's get rid of all licensing laws, drivers licenses, registrations, insurance, etc.
Let's even the playing field to the lowest common denominator.
i can not condone the fact that you do it illegally, and quite frankly your comment about benefits takes away any sympathy I may have had for you.
But that's all I will say about it. i do appreciate your input, not too many guys will admit to moonlighting in a forum full of contractors.
but if moonlighting illegally is seen as ok, then let's get rid of all licensing laws, drivers licenses, registrations, insurance, etc.
Let's even the playing field to the lowest common denominator.
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
So you would rather me burden my state by being another person collecting well-fare? So all contractors out there claim every cash job they get? they pull permits for EVERY job they do, i highly doubt it, so don't tell me i'm committing the ultimate sin.... Do you pull a permit for install a ceiling fan? how about installing some recess lights? so tell me whats the difference between you and I?
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romexking
Senior Member
- Location
- Marriottsville, Maryland
My employees are paid based on the amount of revenue they generate. I am sure that each and every one would love to make more money... hell, so would I, but if they are caught doing side work, they will very quickly be making far less working for someone else.
As for the part about working for benefits, that just doesn't make sense. You could surely price your work to account for those benefits and only work 4 days, right? After all, your employer has to price that way, and you are most certainly smarter than him. Or could it be that you are using your eployment to subsidize your side work, you know, charge less than what it really costs because someone else is paying for the benefits. Oh, god forbid, but what would you do if you get hurt on one of your side jobs? Would you drag yourself in to work on Monday and then "trip" and go on workers comp. I can assure you I have had this happen to me before. Unfortunately in MD, it is very difficult to get out of paying for any Workers Comp claim regardless of what the employee was doing at the time of injury.
As for the part about working for benefits, that just doesn't make sense. You could surely price your work to account for those benefits and only work 4 days, right? After all, your employer has to price that way, and you are most certainly smarter than him. Or could it be that you are using your eployment to subsidize your side work, you know, charge less than what it really costs because someone else is paying for the benefits. Oh, god forbid, but what would you do if you get hurt on one of your side jobs? Would you drag yourself in to work on Monday and then "trip" and go on workers comp. I can assure you I have had this happen to me before. Unfortunately in MD, it is very difficult to get out of paying for any Workers Comp claim regardless of what the employee was doing at the time of injury.
stickboy1375 said:
i'm licensed, insured, and registerd with the state to legally perform electrical work.
I pay for my own benefits for me and my family.
I get up every morning and provide a livlihood for my employees.
I do all of this within the limits of the law.
my feelings are, if you want to do electrical work on your own, go through the hoops, get your license and pay for your own benefits.
romexking
Senior Member
- Location
- Marriottsville, Maryland
I don't want you to burden the state by being on welfare, but I doubt that you are close to that. What I want you to do is study, learn, take continuing education classes in order to command a higher pay.
And of course we don't get a permit for each fan install, there is nothing for an inspector to see after a fan is installed. They won't be climbing in the attic or taking the fan down to see if we used the correct box. However we do install AFCI breakers if it is in the bedroom. Do you? Or would that cost the customer too much?
From the context of your posts, I believe you think that the end always justifies the means. In some areas of the country this discussion may be a grey area but for most areas, the facts are:
If licenses (electrical and business) are required and you don't have them, then the side work is wrong and illegal
If insurance (liability and workers comp) is required and you don't have them, then the side work is wrong and illegal
And of course we don't get a permit for each fan install, there is nothing for an inspector to see after a fan is installed. They won't be climbing in the attic or taking the fan down to see if we used the correct box. However we do install AFCI breakers if it is in the bedroom. Do you? Or would that cost the customer too much?
From the context of your posts, I believe you think that the end always justifies the means. In some areas of the country this discussion may be a grey area but for most areas, the facts are:
If licenses (electrical and business) are required and you don't have them, then the side work is wrong and illegal
If insurance (liability and workers comp) is required and you don't have them, then the side work is wrong and illegal
"So you would rather me burden my state by being another person collecting well-fare? So all contractors out there claim every cash job they get? they pull permits for EVERY job they do, i highly doubt it, so don't tell me i'm committing the ultimate sin.... Do you pull a permit for install a ceiling fan? how about installing some recess lights? so tell me whats the difference between you and I?"
Your way out of touch, as a contractor i can assure you we seldom get cash for a job, a rear event, and when we do it goes in with the deposits, every job that requires a permit gets one, i have no idea where your image of a contractor came from but the largest precentage of licensed electrical contractors. operate under the law, i am sorry you have that outlook.
The last time i worked for a contractor, and things slowed up, i cleaned tolets on a night shift at a local manufacturing plant, not go on un employment, or compete with my already slow boss.
Your way out of touch, as a contractor i can assure you we seldom get cash for a job, a rear event, and when we do it goes in with the deposits, every job that requires a permit gets one, i have no idea where your image of a contractor came from but the largest precentage of licensed electrical contractors. operate under the law, i am sorry you have that outlook.
The last time i worked for a contractor, and things slowed up, i cleaned tolets on a night shift at a local manufacturing plant, not go on un employment, or compete with my already slow boss.
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
We can argue about this all night, You have, and spoken your opinion, your not going to change my mind, nor am I going to change yours, You can think of me anyway you wish, but I really am an honest guy just making a living, if that hurts you so bad, I really just don't know what to tell you... sorry...
Check Pilot
Member
I have 2 super apprentices that work for me during the day. We all know that there are pressures from our customers to get something for cheaper than our contract prices.
I quote prices on jobs that folks call me to do and I hold extremely firm on them, even if it costs me a bite out of the profit margin. ( I know, but it happened a couple of times in the last two years and I think we lost about $1500.00 on a $10,100 job and $3.78 on the other one).
About 80% of the physical work gets done by my apprentices. Both of them are super guys. Because of their super personality approaches to folks they get lots of requests to come out "later" and do extra work. Both of these kids come from a farming background and have a very strong work ethic. That's why I hired them after all.
I let them do it too because I've let them know that I'll be more than happy to sign off the permits if it get's done to our normal standards. Plus they get to keep all the money they have made for the job. For me, it's all way after our normal work hours anyways and as long as it doesn't get into fatigue and OSHA crap I couldn't care less.
The only caveat I have is that the customer better not complain to me later for work done "on the side".
I condone "moonlighting" for my apprentices because sooner or later they will run into something that will get them into a "learning experience" that they don't want to be in. I want them to call me without fear of repercussion to get them out of it. And I won't go after either guy, unless, heaven forbid, it's nefarious, unethical, illegal or criminal.
My bonus in all this in Alberta is that I get to keep the tar sands envy out of the forefront of the young guys pants and keep him on the job doing the jobs that I need to get done to keep my committments to my customers.
So fer me the issue of "moonlighting" here in Alberta anyways, has worked for me so far.
Ya can't stop it out here but I think we have worked out a way to make it a liveable way of life.
I know - I know - flame away at me. I'm probably not gonna change my way of thinking, unless somebody comes up with a super change in approach to it all.
I quote prices on jobs that folks call me to do and I hold extremely firm on them, even if it costs me a bite out of the profit margin. ( I know, but it happened a couple of times in the last two years and I think we lost about $1500.00 on a $10,100 job and $3.78 on the other one).
About 80% of the physical work gets done by my apprentices. Both of them are super guys. Because of their super personality approaches to folks they get lots of requests to come out "later" and do extra work. Both of these kids come from a farming background and have a very strong work ethic. That's why I hired them after all.
I let them do it too because I've let them know that I'll be more than happy to sign off the permits if it get's done to our normal standards. Plus they get to keep all the money they have made for the job. For me, it's all way after our normal work hours anyways and as long as it doesn't get into fatigue and OSHA crap I couldn't care less.
The only caveat I have is that the customer better not complain to me later for work done "on the side".
I condone "moonlighting" for my apprentices because sooner or later they will run into something that will get them into a "learning experience" that they don't want to be in. I want them to call me without fear of repercussion to get them out of it. And I won't go after either guy, unless, heaven forbid, it's nefarious, unethical, illegal or criminal.
My bonus in all this in Alberta is that I get to keep the tar sands envy out of the forefront of the young guys pants and keep him on the job doing the jobs that I need to get done to keep my committments to my customers.
So fer me the issue of "moonlighting" here in Alberta anyways, has worked for me so far.
Ya can't stop it out here but I think we have worked out a way to make it a liveable way of life.
I know - I know - flame away at me. I'm probably not gonna change my way of thinking, unless somebody comes up with a super change in approach to it all.
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
emahler said:
I probably will, but for right now, I know the hours required to running a business, never mind the headaches, i'm in a comfort zone right now, I receive a paycheck everyweek, it's not scary, I'm not waiting for my next check to come... or go chasing after money, I respect a contractor for making the scacrfices he makes, but I don't like the fact that you can get upset at me for making a few bucks for my family....
stickboy1375 said:
stick, you really don't get it. I'm not upset that you make a few bucks for your family. But there are other, legal ways to do it.
Get a job as a bartender. Go drive a limo. Whatever.
Don't flout the law and kick legal contractors in the nuts to make money for your family.
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