stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
celtic said:
I honestly don't have an answer for you.
Moonlighting
- Thread starter emahler
- Start date
- Status
I honestly don't have an answer for you.
Check Pilot
Member
I'm happy to cover it too.
Then do it!stickboy1375 said:
It won't hurt you to have your EC license in your back pocket....one day you may want to go full blown "Stickboy Electrical Contractor"....and the test will be harder, the wife and kids will have various demands on your time, blah, blah, blah.
I don't know about your state, but in NJ you can have an EC license and not get a business permit ~ of course you can't actually use the EC lic. until you a busness permit...but taking the test now as opposed to later might save you a few gray hairs/balding areas
Look...I have no gray hairs or balding areas:
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this actually happened tonight...
I stopped for gas and there were 2 local police cruiser in the gas station...lights flashing, with a car pulled over.
Come to find out that they were arrested the driver...what for you ask?
Well, the story I got from the guy working at the gas station (for the record, I talk to everyone) was this.
driver was undocumented (illegal immigrant)
no drivers license
car was unregistered
car was uninsured
Now, I'm sure he was just trying to make a few bucks to support his family (whether here or in his native country) so why should they arrest him?
The point is, are any of those violations really any more serious or dangerous than moonlighting without a license, insurance or a business registration?
I stopped for gas and there were 2 local police cruiser in the gas station...lights flashing, with a car pulled over.
Come to find out that they were arrested the driver...what for you ask?
Well, the story I got from the guy working at the gas station (for the record, I talk to everyone) was this.
driver was undocumented (illegal immigrant)
no drivers license
car was unregistered
car was uninsured
Now, I'm sure he was just trying to make a few bucks to support his family (whether here or in his native country) so why should they arrest him?
The point is, are any of those violations really any more serious or dangerous than moonlighting without a license, insurance or a business registration?
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
I think that is a problem in Connecticut, you have to have a business, in order to have a E1 license, and if you really wanna know why people do sidework its simple, fast cash.... I can't speak for every contractor out there, or employee for that matter, but nothing burns my ass more than doing a T&M job and hear about not making any money... or not receiving a end of job bonus (ever), I work alone, I push out alot of work, and it's usually difficult work, old houses, that type of stuff, maybe I am pi**ed off at my boss and think i'm being taken care of, but in reality, something is not adding up, If I need to include sidework to survive then maybe I do need to do something about it...
Check Pilot
Member
Celtic
My insurance covers ALL my liabilities and the actions and work of my staff, whether on or off duty, excepting criminal actions.
I also have non-punitive policy about reporting anything that might go wrong - either on or off the job. Seems to work with these two farm boys - I hear about stuff that I, as an employer, shouldn't be privy to. But it seems to work for us. We have fixed lots of issues that will make it a LOT safer for all of us here in the Company
The policy is published and is also in the possession of an independent lawyer that I did not choose. I left that up to the two guys that work for me. It was their choice. I hope it works out for all of us.
My insurance covers ALL my liabilities and the actions and work of my staff, whether on or off duty, excepting criminal actions.
I also have non-punitive policy about reporting anything that might go wrong - either on or off the job. Seems to work with these two farm boys - I hear about stuff that I, as an employer, shouldn't be privy to. But it seems to work for us. We have fixed lots of issues that will make it a LOT safer for all of us here in the Company
The policy is published and is also in the possession of an independent lawyer that I did not choose. I left that up to the two guys that work for me. It was their choice. I hope it works out for all of us.
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
Check Pilot said:
In connecticut we have a 1:1 ratio for journeymen to apprentice... do you have another employee?
romexking
Senior Member
- Location
- Marriottsville, Maryland
checkpilot,
Why not hire a third "super" apprentice instead of giving work away. By overtly condoning this side work, you are opening yourself up for more legal problems than perhaps you know.
If the apprentice hurts or kills themself working on a side job that you knowing allowed and perhaps even gave instructions about...well let's just say I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. How would you getting your pants sued off affect the rest of your family. Think about that before you continue this foolish policy.
Aside from the legal stuff, how would it affect your business if your "super" was unable to work because of an injury sustained on a side job? Are you going to pay the increase in Workers Comp insurance in order for them to make a couple of bucks? What happens when these super apprentices no longer work for you, and their customer (it used to be your customer, but after using "on the side" helpers, they will never pay your "high" rates again) has a problem with the installation, are you going to cover that also? Do you know how much money it cost you to obtain that customer, only to throw them away into the arms of a less qualified person? I'm sure it was a considerable amount.
Please for the sake of the consumers in your area, stop this practice of allowing side work. Your apprentices are not qualified to protect the lives and property of their new customers. Remember, it is not always what you do that can cause a problem, what also what you don't do. If they were qualified, they would not be apprentices. Some little old lady's life is at risk, and I am not exaggerating.
Why not hire a third "super" apprentice instead of giving work away. By overtly condoning this side work, you are opening yourself up for more legal problems than perhaps you know.
If the apprentice hurts or kills themself working on a side job that you knowing allowed and perhaps even gave instructions about...well let's just say I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. How would you getting your pants sued off affect the rest of your family. Think about that before you continue this foolish policy.
Aside from the legal stuff, how would it affect your business if your "super" was unable to work because of an injury sustained on a side job? Are you going to pay the increase in Workers Comp insurance in order for them to make a couple of bucks? What happens when these super apprentices no longer work for you, and their customer (it used to be your customer, but after using "on the side" helpers, they will never pay your "high" rates again) has a problem with the installation, are you going to cover that also? Do you know how much money it cost you to obtain that customer, only to throw them away into the arms of a less qualified person? I'm sure it was a considerable amount.
Please for the sake of the consumers in your area, stop this practice of allowing side work. Your apprentices are not qualified to protect the lives and property of their new customers. Remember, it is not always what you do that can cause a problem, what also what you don't do. If they were qualified, they would not be apprentices. Some little old lady's life is at risk, and I am not exaggerating.
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romexking
Senior Member
- Location
- Marriottsville, Maryland
You know, when bidding a job, it is tough enough having to compete with "on the side" electricians because of having to pay for their benefits and all, so tell me how we are going to get the HO to fork over the extra money for a bonus that you expect? Or should that just come out of my wallet too?
romexking
Senior Member
- Location
- Marriottsville, Maryland
What difference does the ratio make? Is was implemented in some areas to protect the safety of the consumer, by making sure unqualified persons were supervised, but by allowing apprentices to do all sorts of side work, without supervision, it shows a disregard for that concept anyway.
romexking
Senior Member
- Location
- Marriottsville, Maryland
OK...my head hurts.
Say Goodnight Gracie
Say Goodnight Gracie
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
emahler:
Please notice my location of my post Washington DC. 36 years in business and never missed a day. Luckily in this area we are fairly recession proof. Between the Dotcoms and the medical research industry we have Uncle Sam. In addition in my particular business, I have little competition (many of my customers are electrical contractors) but we are diversifying into more standard commercial electrical work.
So basically with 22 years in business this has never been an issue. What I do worry about is the manpower not being available to work an off hour emergency, because they are on a side job, though this has never happened.
Personally I would prefer they would not do side work, but there is little I could do to stop them. In addition to Washington being recession proof (almost) it is VERY expensive to live here. A starter townhouse, two levels, no yard, fixer upper begins at 325,000.00. We pay well, 4 of our electricians made more than $90,000.00 last year, but with a stay at home wife, 3 kids, mortgage and car payment, moonlighting is a fact of life.
I do commercial and residential inspections foe engineering firms and property owners locally and have completed commercial, industrial, data center inspections nationwide, one thing I have learned is substandard work is not restricted to just moonlighters, I posted earlier that substandard work is industry wide.
The same guy/girl doing substandard work at night or on the weekend does not suddenly do quality work the next morning at 7:00 AM when he shows up at his full time job.
Please notice my location of my post Washington DC. 36 years in business and never missed a day. Luckily in this area we are fairly recession proof. Between the Dotcoms and the medical research industry we have Uncle Sam. In addition in my particular business, I have little competition (many of my customers are electrical contractors) but we are diversifying into more standard commercial electrical work.
So basically with 22 years in business this has never been an issue. What I do worry about is the manpower not being available to work an off hour emergency, because they are on a side job, though this has never happened.
Personally I would prefer they would not do side work, but there is little I could do to stop them. In addition to Washington being recession proof (almost) it is VERY expensive to live here. A starter townhouse, two levels, no yard, fixer upper begins at 325,000.00. We pay well, 4 of our electricians made more than $90,000.00 last year, but with a stay at home wife, 3 kids, mortgage and car payment, moonlighting is a fact of life.
I do commercial and residential inspections foe engineering firms and property owners locally and have completed commercial, industrial, data center inspections nationwide, one thing I have learned is substandard work is not restricted to just moonlighters, I posted earlier that substandard work is industry wide.
The same guy/girl doing substandard work at night or on the weekend does not suddenly do quality work the next morning at 7:00 AM when he shows up at his full time job.
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- Location
- Massachusetts
Keep On Track
Keep On Track
Members just a reminder from the forum rules.
Feel free to discuss the facts of this subject but do not make it personal.
Keep On Track
Members just a reminder from the forum rules.
Feel free to discuss the facts of this subject but do not make it personal.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
iwire said:
Good point Bob. In my mind, whenever a post gets to 16 pages it gets personal.
jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Not necessarily, especially if the exciting subject of whether a switch is an outlet comes up.
-Jeff
Originator of the longest thread on record at this forum (782 total posts, 20 pages)
-Jeff
Originator of the longest thread on record at this forum (782 total posts, 20 pages)
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stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
Well, enough on this subject then, everyone knows where I get my supplemental money... too bad life revolves around the almighty dollar, but I did not create it this way, just trying to get ahead in life...
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
The term " Moonlighting" is very deceptive, most Americans have work a second job a some time in their lives.
Even "side-work" sounds more like a second job to earn extra money.
The truth of the matter is this: If you are making as much money on the side as you do on your day job then you are running an illegal electrical contracting business. What's the difference betweeen an electrician working on the side and your average unlicensed contractor or handyman ( many of the handymen have been electricians, carpenters or plumbers helpers )? The volume of work.
Can you go to the city and tell them you don't need a business license because you are not going to have that many customers? No, You can not, the law requires a license before you go on your first service call.
You can have any opinion you want about the effect on the industry but you can't get around the fact that it's illegal. Even in areas where a state license is not required a business license is. Taxes are required to be paid.
I don't know of anyone that's "qualified" (holding state certification) to do side work that couldn't get a license and start a part time business. The only difference is they would have to start keeping records and paying taxes. The customer would be able to find them six months later if something goes wrong. When properly licensed they can work for as little money as they wish. Price fixing is illegal ( in this state ).
If you can't do the work legally then you have no business in the trade. No man should be forced to break the law to make a living. That's not just electrical but any industry. We are a nation of laws and if we don't like the laws then we should try to change them not avoid them.
Any different opinions that will stand up at an IRS audit I really want to hear.
Even "side-work" sounds more like a second job to earn extra money.
The truth of the matter is this: If you are making as much money on the side as you do on your day job then you are running an illegal electrical contracting business. What's the difference betweeen an electrician working on the side and your average unlicensed contractor or handyman ( many of the handymen have been electricians, carpenters or plumbers helpers )? The volume of work.
Can you go to the city and tell them you don't need a business license because you are not going to have that many customers? No, You can not, the law requires a license before you go on your first service call.
You can have any opinion you want about the effect on the industry but you can't get around the fact that it's illegal. Even in areas where a state license is not required a business license is. Taxes are required to be paid.
I don't know of anyone that's "qualified" (holding state certification) to do side work that couldn't get a license and start a part time business. The only difference is they would have to start keeping records and paying taxes. The customer would be able to find them six months later if something goes wrong. When properly licensed they can work for as little money as they wish. Price fixing is illegal ( in this state ).
If you can't do the work legally then you have no business in the trade. No man should be forced to break the law to make a living. That's not just electrical but any industry. We are a nation of laws and if we don't like the laws then we should try to change them not avoid them.
Any different opinions that will stand up at an IRS audit I really want to hear.
- Location
- Massachusetts
growler said:
I disagree, you do not know that it is illegal.
I don't need a business license here in MA, I can do as much volume of work as I want with my J-mans license, no more than one apprentice and some liability insurance
I don't need a bussines license here in MA.
I agree about the taxes, but that is a given in any business if it is part time or full time.
I am sure it will be no surprise to you that some full time companies cheat on their taxes.
That said we should keep in mind the definition that emahler provided for this thread.
emahler said:
So given that definition, in this state that type of Moonlighting is prohibited by law but happens hundreds of times a day.
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